The 50Hz/60Hz question

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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by DreamcastRIP » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:56 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:Highlighted, but not experienced or compared in any other way than a few words on a page.
Well, obviously.

Plus screenshots showing the ugly black borders of the PAL version, of course.

Oh, and the demo cover disc of the game that was included with Official UK PlayStation Magazine too, of course.

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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by Antiriad2097 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:31 pm

The same borders we'd had since games began, so no change there. And a PAL demo.

Not that any of that mattered to the majority of game buying public.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by DreamcastRIP » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:15 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:The same borders we'd had since games began, so no change there. And a PAL demo.
Quite what 'since games began' has to do with the price of fish, I don't know. We're discussing a PlayStation game so quite what relevance Sinclair ZX80 games, for instance, have to the debate is a questionable to say the least. Some PAL PlayStation games were indeed optimised to display full screen without said ugly black borders which presumably was to the delight of many PS1 owners in PAL territories. Which perhaps goes some way to explaining for why the PAL version of a high profile game such as Tekken 3 seemed such a disappointment to many. There was also, iirc, a furore over the ugly black borders and slower 50Hz gaming of Daytona USA on PlayStation's initial main competitor, the Sega Saturn, of course.

Returning to your offbeat point, it of course only applies to some gaming systems. Many, and in some cases most, PAL games for systems such as the Amiga, Mega Drive, Jaguar, etc, didn't have huge ugly borders of course. All systems released here before the PlayStation was, I might add, so said screen borders were already a thing of the distant past on some systems by the time Tekken 3 was released here.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by samhain81 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:34 pm

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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by nakamura » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:49 pm

There is a huge possibility that the pirates had a copy of the NTSC version of Tekken 3. When you have a chipped PS1, regions go out of the window and providing the TV could display it, a good chance it hurt the PAL version.

Also most PS1 games coded in Europe were full screen and full speed. Wipeout and Destruction Derby for example were superb as they were coded with 50hz gamers in mind. The import versions are still a few frames smoother but the image size is practically identical.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by DreamcastRIP » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:56 pm

nakamura wrote:There is a huge possibility that the pirates had a copy of the NTSC version of Tekken 3. When you have a chipped PS1, regions go out of the window and providing the TV could display it, a good chance it hurt the PAL version.
Indeed. Just as Mootown already stated here some time ago. :)
Also most PS1 games coded in Europe were full screen and full speed. Wipeout and Destruction Derby for example were superb as they were coded with 50hz gamers in mind. The import versions are still a few frames smoother but the image size is practically identical.
Absolutely. As I intimated above PS1 owners in PAL territories were treated well sometimes and were presumably happy as a result.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by nakamura » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:57 pm

Also with the SNES, a lot of first party Nintendo games were sped up to give the same feel as the import game. Screen size was not increased but a speed boost was a welcome thing never the less.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by adippm82 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:13 pm

DreamcastRIP wrote:Some PAL PlayStation games were indeed optimised to display full screen without said ugly black borders which presumably was to the delight of many PS1 owners in PAL territories. Which perhaps goes some way to explaining for why the PAL version of a high profile game such as Tekken 3 seemed such a disappointment to many. There was also, iirc, a furore over the ugly black borders and slower 50Hz gaming of Daytona USA on PlayStation's initial main competitor, the Sega Saturn, of course
I remember an issue of CVG, when Ridge Racer Revolution was released, in the news section they had a nice bright green tick over a screenshot of the game, which had received a great PAL optimised version, then a great red cross over a screenshot of Xmen: Children Of the Atom on the Saturn which had no such treatment from Capcom and was a much worse game for it, than the five star game they had reviewed on import, I seem to think they said they could only now award the game four stars, could be wrong about that last bit though.

I think it was really starting to get on a fair few peoples nerves at this time, that the PAL regions were getting slower games, with squashed screens.

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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by nakamura » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:17 pm

Super Play pioneered info on PAL and NTSC games. It was a pretty big selling magazine and certainly educated gamers on the important of import gaming. Also being a Future mag, I wasn't surprised to see similar info popping up in other mags such as the Official PS1 magazine.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by SonicTheHedgehog » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:02 pm

DreamcastRIP wrote:Didn't the PAL version of Tekken 3 (PS) sell below Namco's sales projections because,

* it was a poorly optimised PAL conversion featuring black screen borders and played noticeably slower than the NTSC version,
Not sure if this was true for this game in general but this problem was my main irritation for games back in the day. The difference between Final Fantasy X NTSC & PAL (PS2) was like night and day and playing through the PAL version was probably why i didn't care for it.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by ShadowNeku » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:44 pm

DreamcastRIP wrote: TV.

Playing games such as Sonic The Hedgehog on my PAL Mega Drive is plain awful now I'm used to playing the game as Sega originally intended so I no longer bother.

Sonic The Hedgehog NTSC vs PAL - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSSYo0npMhA
Woooooaaahhh. I've never played the original Sonic in anything other than PAL. Even the version on the Sonic Mega Collection for PS2 is in PAL format and i never realised how much slower it is.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by DreamcastRIP » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:13 am

adippm82 wrote:
DreamcastRIP wrote:Some PAL PlayStation games were indeed optimised to display full screen without said ugly black borders which presumably was to the delight of many PS1 owners in PAL territories. Which perhaps goes some way to explaining for why the PAL version of a high profile game such as Tekken 3 seemed such a disappointment to many. There was also, iirc, a furore over the ugly black borders and slower 50Hz gaming of Daytona USA on PlayStation's initial main competitor, the Sega Saturn, of course
I remember an issue of CVG, when Ridge Racer Revolution was released, in the news section they had a nice bright green tick over a screenshot of the game, which had received a great PAL optimised version, then a great red cross over a screenshot of Xmen: Children Of the Atom on the Saturn which had no such treatment from Capcom and was a much worse game for it, than the five star game they had reviewed on import, I seem to think they said they could only now award the game four stars, could be wrong about that last bit though.

I think it was really starting to get on a fair few peoples nerves at this time, that the PAL regions were getting slower games, with squashed screens.
That's the way I broadly remember it too albeit that I didn't buy the likes of C+VG, GamesMaster or any PlayStation magazines every month back then. As nakamura indicated the quality of NTSC-to-PAL conversions was in the spotlight for gamers as far back as the SNES days in magazines such as Super Play.

Also, I strongly suspect that most seasoned gamers who bought a Dreamcast back in late '99 would have instantly recognised what a great thing it was to finally own a mainstream PAL home videogames console where the majority of games featured the 60Hz option from the get-go. A real and significant improvement in the quality of home videogame entertainment for PAL gamers. In fact, iirc, Sega tried promoting the Dreamcast in Europe (or it may have just been the UK, I don't remember) on the basis that all of the console's games featured the 60Hz option. I believe they were forced to cease doing so when it became clear that not every single DC game had the 60Hz option. Point being though, playing games in full speed 60Hz was evidently a big deal back then if it formed part of a mainstream console's marketing strategy.

SonicTheHedgehog wrote:
DreamcastRIP wrote:Didn't the PAL version of Tekken 3 (PS) sell below Namco's sales projections because,

* it was a poorly optimised PAL conversion featuring black screen borders and played noticeably slower than the NTSC version,
Not sure if this was true for this game in general but this problem was my main irritation for games back in the day. The difference between Final Fantasy X NTSC & PAL (PS2) was like night and day and playing through the PAL version was probably why i didn't care for it.
Yep, I believe PS2 fared quite badly relative to Dreamcast in this regard. Lord knows why given that it was released a good while after Sega's console. Anyway, that's probably drifting a little off topic. Is it at all possible to mod' a PAL PS2 to 'force' 60Hz mode for when playing PAL games? I'm guessing not but I don't know.

ShadowNeku wrote:
DreamcastRIP wrote: TV.

Playing games such as Sonic The Hedgehog on my PAL Mega Drive is plain awful now I'm used to playing the game as Sega originally intended so I no longer bother.

Sonic The Hedgehog NTSC vs PAL - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSSYo0npMhA
Woooooaaahhh. I've never played the original Sonic in anything other than PAL. Even the version on the Sonic Mega Collection for PS2 is in PAL format and i never realised how much slower it is.
My whole life is a lie :(
The difference really is that stark. Like Antiriad was kinda saying earlier, if you're only used to playing such games as they were released in PAL regions and have never seen and heard the NTSC version in motion (in the instances the NTSC version was superior - simply put, that kinda depended on the gaming system) then what you don't know won't hurt you. Ignorance is bliss, as the saying goes. The first time I witnessed Sonic The Hedgehog played in 60Hz as the game's creators intended it to be played was only a few years ago after having bought my aforementioned Sega Nomad. Playing the PAL version now seems like swimming in treacle and the music sounds so 'off' it's simply hideous - like playing a record at appoximately 20% slower speed as someone usefully remarked earlier in the thread or even worse than those crappy licensed handheld emulated Mega Drive clones flogged by the likes of the recently discredited Blaze.

If you're now curious to play your Mega Drive games in 60Hz then the likes of Console Passion offer a reasonably priced console modding service but the shipping costs may sting a little. Not every single PAL Mega Drive can be played in 60Hz (but most can) but as the mod has a switch to flick between 50Hz/60Hz it won't stop you playing any of your Mega Drive/Genesis game cartridges.
Link: http://www.consolepassion.co.uk/modific ... -megadrive

To be fair though, the difference of course stands out the most, music excepted, for fast moving action games with Sonic The Hedgehog obviously being one such game. For slow-paced games the difference is perhaps less noticeable.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by adippm82 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:33 am

DreamcastRIP wrote:Yep, I believe PS2 fared quite badly relative to Dreamcast in this regard. Lord knows why given that it was released a good while after Sega's console. Anyway, that's probably drifting a little off topic. Is it at all possible to mod' a PAL PS2 to 'force' 60Hz mode for when playing PAL games? I'm guessing not but I don't know.
I know I was pretty shocked at Ridge Racer 5 being a poor Pal version, not what I expected from a new console at that time, it was great the effort Sega put into most of the PAL versions of it's games, but as you say the option was not in all of them, I am pretty sure Sega Rally 2 was 50 hz.

DreamcastRIP wrote:The first time I witnessed Sonic The Hedgehog played in 60Hz as the game's creators intended it to be played was only a few years ago after having bought my aforementioned Sega Nomad. Playing the PAL version now seems like swimming in treacle and the music sounds so 'off' it's simply hideous
This is exactly how I discovered how bad the PAL version was, I got hold of the Nomad, and it was the first game I put into it, staggering is the only way to describe the difference in speed, and I showed it to a gamer girl at work, who just loves everything Sonic, she was also blown away, and a bit miffed that we had been given such a crippled version.
DreamcastRIP wrote:If you're now curious to play your Mega Drive games in 60Hz then the likes of Console Passion offer a reasonably priced console modding service but the shipping costs may sting a little. Not every single PAL Mega Drive can be played in 60Hz (but most can) but as the mod has a switch to flick between 50Hz/60Hz it won't stop you playing any of your Mega Drive/Genesis game cartridges.
I got a bit of money given to me a few years ago, so I spent some of it on a switchless MD/MCD/32X machine from them, and it is brilliant, switches between regions, and also 50/60hz at the touch of a button, it plays everything brilliantly, and also has a beautiful RGB picture, playing Space harrier on the 32X was just extraordinary the first time.

Only problem is the mess of wires and power packs that the whole thing needs. :)

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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by nakamura » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:44 am

The PS2 certainly didn't fare well at the start of the era for sure. Namco and Capcom gave awful pal games but Sony and the likes of Konami generally gave optimised or 60hz games. Fortunately for the machine, and the era in general, PAL gamers were almost always given improvements in their games. Everything EA released after the first 6 months or so was full screen, even if it was still 50hz. Game speeds were generally upped too so at least PAL gamers fared better last gen.
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Re: The 50Hz/60Hz question

Post by ToxieDogg » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:28 pm

Playing any games in unoptimized 50hz format is really only for people who don't know any better.

I can't think of a single good reason why anybody would prefer to play that way if there's a better option available. To me, it's basically like someone saying (in a sense) that they'd rather watch ITV's infamous butchered edit of 'RoboCop' than Paul Verhoeven's director's cut because it's the version they first saw as a child.
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