Prince Of Persia on C64

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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by clarance » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:21 pm

So this wouldn't/isn't possible to re-create on cassette or disk right, only possible by streaming data from the flash-cart on the fly - so does that make it a proper Commodore 64 game then? Impressive though it is, it's using modern tech, and so somehow doesn't count in my mind.

Am I wrong to have this funny feeling ? :)
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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by markopoloman » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:38 pm

Yes.
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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by clarance » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:50 pm

Well I'm not convinced, despite your erudite answer Mr Polo, If it wasn't doable on the original spec then it's not really a C64 game is it? Not arguing that the game doesn't look fantastic and all, and I'm not discounting the amount of time and love that's obviously gone into this, but even so...
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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by markopoloman » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:56 pm

I see where you are coming from, but for me the fact it is running on a C64 is enough to make me wet my pants a little! TMR did say that they 'could' have made a cart that big back then - but didn't.... so I would say it i a true 64 game.


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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by clarance » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:07 pm

Downloaded it, but it wont work on my Plus/4 emulator for some reason, can't figure it out... ...and anyway, the SAM version is still my favourite.

Yeah, not sure if it would work on a conventional cart, I guess that would make it alright though if that was the case :)

Modern tec on old computers - it's a bit of a funny one - part of me thinks it's cool, part of me thinks, nah, waste of time - for instance, there's a Sid card out there somewhere for the Plus/4 that I can never get my head around - why not just get a C64, I dunno :|
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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by Pixiu » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:25 am

clarance wrote:Well I'm not convinced, despite your erudite answer Mr Polo, If it wasn't doable on the original spec then it's not really a C64 game is it? Not arguing that the game doesn't look fantastic and all, and I'm not discounting the amount of time and love that's obviously gone into this, but even so...
The fact that you can plug the game cartridge straight into a big standard c64 and play the game would make it a c64 game in my book i reckon. However i do take your point, but bear in mind that Mayhem has already mentioned that 512k carts did exist back in the day, so that should add to its feasibility cred. Dunno what year those carts appeared though. I'm guessing later in the c64's life.
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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by TMR » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:53 am

clarance wrote:Downloaded it, but it wont work on my Plus/4 emulator for some reason, can't figure it out...
Because it's not a Plus/4 game...? =-)

If you mean C64 emulator, as far as i'm aware you'll need the latest version of VICE or it won't work; VICE 2.2 was where Easyflash emulation was added and nothing else seems to have it yet. You also can't drag and drop CRT images into the emulator, they need to be mounted with the Attach cartridge image option from the File menu.
clarance wrote:Yeah, not sure if it would work on a conventional cart, I guess that would make it alright though if that was the case :)
Ocean, Domark, System 3 and others including and Commodore themselves had bank switching cartridges out at the release of the C64GS in 1990, some of which were indeed big enough to store Prince of Persia - Ocean's Toki wasn't that large but spools in player animations from the ROM in a similar way to what PoP is doing from the Easyflash (which is why there's only one crack that runs the game correctly and it needs a RAM expansion, every other version has to drop the music because the crackers took it out to make room for the sprite data).

The Easyflash doesn't do anything that hadn't been done by that point either; the specific hardware used wasn't around in the 1990s no, but it's only simulating what was actually available - the only real issue would've been a higher price tag and that could've been lowered a bit by removing the programming hardware (since it'd be a retail unit rather than something for hobbyists) and mass production.
clarance wrote:Modern tec on old computers - it's a bit of a funny one - part of me thinks it's cool, part of me thinks, nah, waste of time - for instance, there's a Sid card out there somewhere for the Plus/4 that I can never get my head around - why not just get a C64, I dunno :|
Because they wanted SID sound alongside the 121 colour display, faster CPU and that mental writeable raster register amongst other features... =-)

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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by Mayhem » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:15 am

Yeah, as TMR says, it could have been possible in the early 90s when the new wave of cartridges was released, it would have been a question of cost really, and how much the customer would have had to stump up for it by comparison to now.
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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by clarance » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:29 am

TMR wrote:
clarance wrote:Downloaded it, but it wont work on my Plus/4 emulator for some reason, can't figure it out...
Because it's not a Plus/4 game...? =-)
Sorry, that was meant to be a little joke - don't really do c64 games much. A plus/4 version would be nice though...

TMR wrote:
Because they wanted SID sound alongside the 121 colour display, faster CPU and that mental writeable raster register amongst other features... =-)
Yeah, I get all that (sort of), but I prefer to see modern-day coders pushing the limits of the hardware as it was then rather than bolt things on to make things much nicer - Adventures in Time had a great soundtrack with no help from sid :)

Anyway, going off-topic a bit, so I'll just shuffle back to my plus/4, cheers.
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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by TMR » Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:00 pm

clarance wrote:
TMR wrote:Because they wanted SID sound alongside the 121 colour display, faster CPU and that mental writeable raster register amongst other features... =-)
Yeah, I get all that (sort of), but I prefer to see modern-day coders pushing the limits of the hardware as it was then rather than bolt things on to make things much nicer - Adventures in Time had a great soundtrack with no help from sid :)
But at the same time it doesn't work on the base machines of the 264 series without a RAM expansion... [Smiles sweetly =-]

In the case of the Plus/4, SID cards of various schemes were pretty common "back in the day" and most homebrew developers used ripped C64 tunes with their music drivers hacked to either play the output to the card (which was usually memory mapped at a different location to where the C64 keeps it's SID), use up a lot of CPU grind trying to "simulate" the SID or just drop all the waveform and envelope data whilst trying to shoehorn the notes from three channels into two channels of TED, which usually sounds a tad rough. There weren't many TED-based sound editors with decent drivers for a long time, in fact i'm not sure there's more than one or perhaps two even now (and certainly there's no cross editor like GoatTracker or Raster Music Tracker out there) so most musicians have to be programmers to a degree, editing the tunes straight into the driver source with an assembler in a similar way to how Rob Hubbard or Martin Galway used to.

The SID is something a lot of folks want on their machines though, there are multiple hardware solutions for several platforms including the BBC Micro, Acorn Atom, Atari 8-bit and even boards including the recent SID Symphony 2 to bolt a second chip onto C64 to give six channel stereo.

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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by tssk » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:11 am

clarance wrote:So this wouldn't/isn't possible to re-create on cassette or disk right, only possible by streaming data from the flash-cart on the fly - so does that make it a proper Commodore 64 game then? Impressive though it is, it's using modern tech, and so somehow doesn't count in my mind.

Am I wrong to have this funny feeling ? :)
I had the same feeling too but...didn't the port of Battle COmmand on the C64 do the same thing with using the speed of the cart for quick table references?

Now if they'd have added extra Ram or chips to the C64 itself that would be a different story. But I think this just squeezes in. (The same way Pitfall 2 squeezes in on the 2600 despite using bank switching and having an on board sound processor for the music.)

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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by merman » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:29 am

tssk wrote:
clarance wrote:So this wouldn't/isn't possible to re-create on cassette or disk right, only possible by streaming data from the flash-cart on the fly - so does that make it a proper Commodore 64 game then? Impressive though it is, it's using modern tech, and so somehow doesn't count in my mind.

Am I wrong to have this funny feeling ? :)
I had the same feeling too but...didn't the port of Battle COmmand on the C64 do the same thing with using the speed of the cart for quick table references?

Now if they'd have added extra Ram or chips to the C64 itself that would be a different story. But I think this just squeezes in. (The same way Pitfall 2 squeezes in on the 2600 despite using bank switching and having an on board sound processor for the music.)
Yes, Battle Command had look-up tables stored on the cartridge to speed up the 3D calculations. But it was never paging in more than 8K at a time I believe.
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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by TMR » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:43 am

Just seen a note on the 1541 Ultimate site dated last Sunday saying that "Firmware 2.4 is in beta testing. It supports reading of .crt files (finally), including EasyFlash" - that means 1541 Ultimate and 1541U2 owners will soon be able to play Prince of Persia on their machines.

i ordered a Chameleon from Amigakit but there's been a delay at the far end and the units aren't due to arrive until the 4th - they've got someone coming along to the event but, unless they leave after that delivery and can bring a unit along for me, i won't have anything able to run PoP at Replay. =-(

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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by ivarf » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:07 am

TMR wrote:
Havantgottaclue wrote:Wouldn't it have just been a multiload? I would be surprised if PoP worked the C64 harder than the likes of Turrican. Of course, I'm not a coder so I can't see the hidden problems, but still ...
The game doesn't just load levels from cartridge, instead there are blocks of code and data constantly being paged in for use during play; the animations for the kid, guards and skeletons alone are too big to load in one pass and the code to draw them in has been unrolled for speed. It really isn't safe to yank a cartridge from the machine during play, but if you could the game is guaranteed to crash in less than a quarter of a second. In theory it could be converted to run with a RAM expansion but that'd take quite a bit of work from it's current state because the RAM is copied down with a DMA rather than paged in.

The CPC version was probably a complete pain in the arse for different reasons because they had to pare things down in order to squeeze it into 64K; i've seen chat about another C64 implementation that takes this route in fact, converting the graphics to characters and most likely paring down the animations and that'd work on a stock machine as a multiload.
Why do this work better on the Amstrad CPC than the C64? Has it something to do with the hardware or is it just that the Amstrad CPC this time had a good coder?

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Re: Prince Of Persia on C64

Post by TMR » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:55 am

ivarf wrote:
TMR wrote:The CPC version was probably a complete pain in the arse for different reasons because they had to pare things down in order to squeeze it into 64K; i've seen chat about another C64 implementation that takes this route in fact, converting the graphics to characters and most likely paring down the animations and that'd work on a stock machine as a multiload.
Why do this work better on the Amstrad CPC than the C64? Has it something to do with the hardware or is it just that the Amstrad CPC this time had a good coder?
i think it's a combination of factors; the CPC coder was indeed good at what he did so the results were decent (although the concessions he was forced to make in order to cram everything into 64K do show, even more so if you're a hardcore fan of the game), but i suspect it's also a matter of interest at the time being considered not big enough on the C64 for a game like PoP - i've been told that Domark had something going on the C64 (and they had access to their own bank switching cartridge scheme too, so who knows what could've been at this point) but shelved it, so i'd guess that was either down to lack of demand or a major technical issue presented itself.

PoP as a piece of code goes against what most C64 coders are "taught", it might use hardware sprites but has to software clip them in realtime for the backgrounds so animations aren't just played back by changing sprite pointers and instead need chunks of data copying around and modifying on the fly.

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