Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

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Liamh1982
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Liamh1982 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:01 pm

True, the likes of Project 64 allow you to play most of the games in the N64 library perfectly adequately (not all though - try Yoshi's Story!), but they just don't look authentic, no matter what settings you use. In a strange way I prefer the blur and fuzz the real thing gives you. And Saturn emulation, while getting better all the time (SSF in particular), is still a million miles from perfect. And lump in the Jaguar as well - Project Tempest still struggles with some simple games, and although Zophar says T2K looks promising, I can't get it to run anything at all!

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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Pixiu » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:46 pm

'1000s of ROMs on PC versus Arcade room' is a bit like 'Huge shipping container labelled CAKE versus cake shop display window'.

Kind of.

This thread has inspired me to go play some games in MAME on xbox. :D



Sort of feel like some cake now too.
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C=Style
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by C=Style » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:06 am

Liamh1982 wrote:True, the likes of Project 64 allow you to play most of the games in the N64 library perfectly adequately (not all though - try Yoshi's Story!), but they just don't look authentic, no matter what settings you use. In a strange way I prefer the blur and fuzz the real thing gives you. And Saturn emulation, while getting better all the time (SSF in particular), is still a million miles from perfect. And lump in the Jaguar as well - Project Tempest still struggles with some simple games, and although Zophar says T2K looks promising, I can't get it to run anything at all!
Yeah Yoshi Story seems to be hard to emulate, that game is well underrated! On a real system in RGB it looks beautiful.

I always wanted to emulate the Jag but it seems many emulators are closed source and not been worked on in years, and I could never get any games to work.
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Rory Milne
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Rory Milne » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:58 am

Liamh1982 wrote:True, the likes of Project 64 allow you to play most of the games in the N64 library perfectly adequately (not all though - try Yoshi's Story!)
Liamh1982 wrote:And Saturn emulation, while getting better all the time (SSF in particular), is still a million miles from perfect.
There's a new version of Project 64 on the way that promises far better emulation, although it's not a great idea to ask the devs when it'll be ready as it really winds them up!

The most recent version of SSF has half of the Saturn's hardware emulated 100%, the other half is at either 85% or 95% so nearly there.
C=Style wrote:I always wanted to emulate the Jag but it seems many emulators are closed source and not been worked on in years, and I could never get any games to work.
I'd recommend Virtual Jaguar, it's open source, it is still being worked on and it's easy enough to get running. Compatibility isn't 100% as yet (the page I've linked to has a compatibility list) but a post from one of the devs on the VJ forum in February said they're expecting to "get as close to 100% compatibility for everything" with version 2.0.0 which they hope to release "sooner than later".
Liamh1982 wrote:In a strange way I prefer the blur and fuzz the real thing gives you.
Ah, fair enough, not much emulation can offer on that score I suppose.

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Liamh1982
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Liamh1982 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:06 am

I've tried a previous version of Virtual Jaguar and awkward wasn't the word! And that compatibility list at the moment is similar to PT's. Still, might give ver.2 a go.

And I've tried SSF 0.12 but even using the European BIOS it has problems loading my discs. 0.11.5 is still better for my needs at the moment, although it still has a bit of bother running games that use the Saturn's hi-res mode.

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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by speedlolita » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:15 am

Nothing like owning the real thing, simply put.

I dunno why I dislike emulation so - but I do.

For arcade games though I don't mind using MAME or FBA.
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Rory Milne
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Rory Milne » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:32 am

Liamh1982 wrote:I've tried a previous version of Virtual Jaguar and awkward wasn't the word! And that compatibility list at the moment is similar to PT's. Still, might give ver.2 a go.

And I've tried SSF 0.12 but even using the European BIOS it has problems loading my discs. 0.11.5 is still better for my needs at the moment, although it still has a bit of bother running games that use the Saturn's hi-res mode.
Think I set up Virtual Jaguar during a intensive spate of setting up a ton of emus so I had probably just gotten used to dealing with their various potentially frustrating "quirks" at that point, don't remember VJ having that many settings to configure or it giving me that many headaches but it was a good while ago that I set it up.

As for SSF I'm maybe just lucky in that all the Saturn games I own happen to be ones that worked perfectly with the version I tried (can't remember which version off the top of my head). I can only imagine it would be something of a p.i.t.a. to have games that don't run well or worse at all with the latest build. Having said that I have felt for some time that SSF was the emu to bet on for 100% compatibility at some point down the line. Time will tell I suppose.

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Jay
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Jay » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:50 am

Can you run an emulator on PC hooked up to an LCD TV and have perfectly smooth horizontal scrolling? I tried a C64 emulator ages ago this way and the scrolling on Uridium was horrendous. I didn't put a great deal of effort into it though, so perhaps changing some settings could have sorted it.

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Spector
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Spector » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:40 am

Most emulators have a tiny delay in the controls (about 2/10 of a second) which becomes more obvious in shoot em ups, and that's why I'm not keen on them. I checked out the various MAME cabs at replay last year and I think all but one had the delay. I'm surprised that after all these years it hasn't been fixed.

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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Liamh1982 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:24 pm

Jay wrote:Can you run an emulator on PC hooked up to an LCD TV and have perfectly smooth horizontal scrolling? I tried a C64 emulator ages ago this way and the scrolling on Uridium was horrendous. I didn't put a great deal of effort into it though, so perhaps changing some settings could have sorted it.
Try turning on V-Sync, if that doesn't work I don't know what will.

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Jay
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Jay » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:33 pm

Liamh1982 wrote:
Jay wrote:Can you run an emulator on PC hooked up to an LCD TV and have perfectly smooth horizontal scrolling? I tried a C64 emulator ages ago this way and the scrolling on Uridium was horrendous. I didn't put a great deal of effort into it though, so perhaps changing some settings could have sorted it.
Try turning on V-Sync, if that doesn't work I don't know what will.
V-sync doesn't solve the issue.

I have an old graphics card which outputs composite and s-video. Now, *that* hooked up to a CRT with an s-video lead, does perfect scrolling as long as the emulator will ouput 60/50hz accordingly. Just a shame it doesn't output RGB.

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Liamh1982
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Liamh1982 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:47 pm

^ Sorry, it's just that I use VGA to hook up to my TV and any scrolling or screen tearing is sorted by V-Sync. Wish I could have been more help.

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Jay
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Jay » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:01 pm

Liamh1982 wrote:^ Sorry, it's just that I use VGA to hook up to my TV and any scrolling or screen tearing is sorted by V-Sync. Wish I could have been more help.
Sorted completely? Using Uridium as an example, because on an actual C64, the scrolling is silky, silky smooth. On your set-up Uridium runs the same?

I've not yet seen a PC monitor perform this well enough for my liking. Perhaps your TV handles 50/60hz over VGA unlike my PC monitor?

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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by llj » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:20 pm

As people kind of subtly pointed out, you also have to have the right setup too, in terms of video, sound, etc,. I've seen tons of people boast about how their "free" ROM is more arcade perfect than such and such a console port of the same game, yet when they upload their gameplay videos, their game looks choppy and way crappy compared to the originals (not to mention still much worse than even the rom collections for consoles they tend to make fun of). Most people actually do not have the appropriate computer setup to play Arcade ROMs.

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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Antiriad2097 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:10 pm

The C64 scrolling issue is more to do with the display refresh rates than the emulation itself. With a 50Hz CRT you can get smooth PAL C64 gaming.

As for the delay in MAME cabs, 2/10ths of a second is a massive lag. That's a control issue, possibly down to the encoder in use. The lag should be (near) imperceptable on a good set up.

The display issue does make it difficult to have a perfect all rounder set up - you really need a good monitor that copes with the varying refresh rates/resolutions and where possible, variable controls. Ideally you'd want a specific system for each genre/system (say a driving cab, or a 16 bit console cab). That way you can optimise the display and controls to best match the games within.

Personally I want at least 5 systems - a twin stick, an analogue stick, a trackball, a wheel and a yoke. And maybe a spinner. And perhaps a rotational stick. And... ;)
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