David Braben in anti 'pre-owned games' rant

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:41 am

Dudley wrote:Virtually no-one who copies bought it. They all downloaded it and almost exclusively the leak comes from inside the companies concerned. No-one buys a 360 game, copies it and trades it in. Why the hell would they spend £20 for absolutely no reason.
Anecdotally, I can think of quite a lot of people who buy games, play them for a week or so and then sell them on second hand, whilst keeping a copy for themselves. This has been going on since the days of the ZX Spectrum and applies to pretty much any format that can be easily copied. I don't think that this accounts for more than a minute fraction of piracy, in comparison with cracked downloads for instance, but if everyone did it then I'm sure that the developers would still feel something of a pinch from it.
Why the hell should they? It doesn't happen in any other industry. I don't send Barrat £30k is I sell a house, I didn't give Vauxhall a cut when I bought my less than 6 month old house from Enterprise.
Like I said before, you can't keep a backup copy of a car or a house when you sell it on. The way the law stands though, there's nothing stopping the retailers doing what they want though which is why I doubt that they'd agree to it.

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Dudley
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Post by Dudley » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:28 am

Matt_B wrote: Anecdotally, I can think of quite a lot of people who buy games, play them for a week or so and then sell them on second hand, whilst keeping a copy for themselves. This has been going on since the days of the ZX Spectrum and applies to pretty much any format that can be easily copied
Which today accounts for "the PC" , which you can't trade in and the PS2, which is an increasing irrelevance in the new market. Everything else requires some sort of specialism to rip the games (note : being able to play a copy is not enough). What formats are they doing this on and again, WHY? You'd have to be a bufoon.
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Post by SexyWayne » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:13 am

Matt_B wrote:Anecdotally, I can think of quite a lot of people who buy games, play them for a week or so and then sell them on second hand, whilst keeping a copy for themselves.
just because they've made a copy doesn't deter from the fact that the very first sale of the game is the only one that puts money back into the industry

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:13 am

Dudley wrote:Which today accounts for "the PC" , which you can't trade in and the PS2, which is an increasing irrelevance in the new market. Everything else requires some sort of specialism to rip the games (note : being able to play a copy is not enough). What formats are they doing this on and again, WHY? You'd have to be a bufoon.
Perhaps not everywhere does trade in for PC games, but CEX certainly do and probably some other places. There's no shortage of very new PC games being sold on E-bay either.

As far as consoles go, even if games not being directly copied, pretty much all of them appear to have been cracked in some form or another and I'd be very surprised if there weren't some people trading in games that they originally bought once they're able to source an illegal version.

This is all incidental to Braben's point though; even if there was absolutely no piracy going on at all, developers would still get a smaller cut of the profits if second-hand games sales increase at the expense of new games.

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Dudley
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Post by Dudley » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:47 am

Just like in every other industry ever. Why should games get special treatment that no other industry ever got? What makes games special that doesn't apply to music? films? cars? houses? magazines? Remote controls? consoles themselves? Tables? Chairs? TVs? Dishwashers?
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Post by do_sucol » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:48 pm

Fightersmegamix wrote:
too many scratched disks have put me off second hand for non retro stuff.
Strokes the lovely sleek black sega cartridges :D ,you'll be around longer than me,sniff
Oh not again! wrote:I notice Braben uses the age old technique of making claims and then failing to substantiate them in any way, shape or form!
Like the BBC's so called "news service" :roll:
Last edited by do_sucol on Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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It's doing what it was designed to do - make the rich richer.

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Post by do_sucol » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:27 pm

Vir_Lucis wrote:
Matt_B wrote: Still, I'd be surprised if anything actually gets worked out. They'll probably just have to bite the bullet and adapt their business models to a changing market.
Exactly. This industry is absolutely huge and is only going to get bigger for the near future anyway. You can't have the idea that you can keep on going with twenty year old business models where the developers (working out of their bedrooms) get most of the dosh.

There are a few issues here with the gamestores too.

For example, most gamestores (like Game and Game Station i'm talking about here) do extensive marketing for new games. Big shop window banners and catalogues. This is the most visible form of advertising on most high streets for new games. Now, i'm presuming that the stores themselves (their headquarters anyway) are the ones who pay for this marketing - thereby increasing sales of new games.

The point in bold,is where i think it's actually the other way round.

Assuming it follows the american bussines model, major game stores like Gamestop,actually charge the big three ,depending on what they want to have displayed,or if they want things like videos playing of their latest/soon to come titles,come in to talk to staff,pay for the time it takes to do it..

Everything that you'd think the retailer does out of their own back pocket,is paid for by the people who want their products in the stores,(there's a peed off Gamestop ex employee,on youtube,going into great detail of their practices)
The economic and political system isn't broken.
It's doing what it was designed to do - make the rich richer.

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Post by Fightersmegamix » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:09 am

Comparisons to houses and cars are unfair as the car industry doesn't need you to buy 30 cars a year.

HMV don't sell second hand DVD's, waterstones don't sell second hand books but games are sold second hand alongside the new on the high street.

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Post by psj3809 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:16 am

Fightersmegamix wrote:Comparisons to houses and cars are unfair as the car industry doesn't need you to buy 30 cars a year.

HMV don't sell second hand DVD's, waterstones don't sell second hand books but games are sold second hand alongside the new on the high street.
Fair enough but i think we're being picky, you get 2nd hand books in a lot of shops, if you want to move 2nd hand games from the high street and instead in a small independant store like a 2nd hand bookshop then people will still go there to buy the games.

I buy a few PC games (dont copy them) and have bought a fair few brand new/2nd hand ones, the prices of 40 quid etc are totally OTT so unless its one i want that second i just wait a while.

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Post by Dudley » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:49 am

Fightersmegamix wrote:Comparisons to houses and cars are unfair as the car industry doesn't need you to buy 30 cars a year.

HMV don't sell second hand DVD's, waterstones don't sell second hand books but games are sold second hand alongside the new on the high street.
You can buy 2nd hand of all 3 on Ealing high street.
Comparisons to houses and cars are unfair as the car industry doesn't need you to buy 30 cars a year.
And games don't cost £300,000. They lose out on a LOT more money if you buy a second hand house you filthy stealing scum.... get off my keyboard Mr Braben...

But I gave a lot more examples other than games, books and DVDs. Why should the game industry get a protection, at the expense once again of the average consumer, that NO other industry EVER has had?
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Post by psj3809 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:08 am

Dudley wrote:Why should the game industry get a protection, at the expense once again of the average consumer, that NO other industry EVER has had?
100% agree

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Post by Fightersmegamix » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:25 am

psj3809 wrote:Fair enough but i think we're being picky, you get 2nd hand books in a lot of shops, if you want to move 2nd hand games from the high street and instead in a small independant store like a 2nd hand bookshop then people will still go there to buy the games.
I think moving second hand to independent smaller shops would be better for the image of gaming but understand Game wanting to keep the whole market. I think larger stores would help. At the moment half of all major games stores shelving is given over to second hand games limiting the shelf space and exposure given to new stuff. Smaller and more innovative games have a harder time getting noticed.

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Post by psj3809 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:16 am

I dont know the exact figures for this year, perhaps because of the credit crunch its not so good but past years i always heard/read that games were selling by the bucketload ?

Considering Braben hasnt brought out a game in about 8 years or so i dont see what his latest whinge is about. Shame.

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Post by Matt_B » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:21 am

psj3809 wrote:I dont know the exact figures for this year, perhaps because of the credit crunch its not so good but past years i always heard/read that games were selling by the bucketload ?

Considering Braben hasnt brought out a game in about 8 years or so i dont see what his latest whinge is about. Shame.
I can understand why they might have passed you by but Braben's company Frontier Developments have released quite a few games over the past few years. The most recent was LostWinds for the Wii earlier this year.

On the other hand, if you think it's been about eight years since he brought out a good game that's probably an underestimate.

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Post by GarryG » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:51 am

Matt_B wrote:Anecdotally, I can think of quite a lot of people who buy games, play them for a week or so and then sell them on second hand, whilst keeping a copy for themselves.
Actually, I would think relatively very few people would have done this since the days of audio tape.

This type of buying/returning and rental/returning copying was rife in the 8Bit audio tape days and possibly some of the early un-copy protected floppy disks days, but since then there’s always been prohibitive measures.

Although the first CD consoles didn’t have any copy protection the technology wasn’t around to realistically home-copy these anyway, so the format was prohibitive enough. This is also true with any cartridge based software.

For modern gaming the blue-ray/HD stuff etcetera have both copy protection and a prohibitively expensive media to deal with; so relatively very few people would be capable of making a workable ‘back-up’ copy of this software.

Even with CD/DVD based PC disks, this isn’t as simple as copying the medium. A certain degree of ability and tumescence is required to successfully make a working back-up that is free from the original medium.

Of course there are always pirate copies/rips of the software but that is a different issue, as someone with a pirated copy wouldn’t spend anything to get the original in the first place!
Why would anyone buy original material then try to rip it themselves when it would be much simpler and entirely cost free to download an already pirated version?

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