Retro Gamer - Issue 126

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Imhotep
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Imhotep » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:12 pm

Not quite as interesting as last months issue, but can't have it allways. Highlight was the Knightlore feature, a great article, I really must dig it out and play it again one day and see if I can complete it, I am glad the BBC did get these great Ultimate games, we missed out on a lot of the 8 bit classics, but am grateful to Ultimate for releasing so many of them, and then to discover Cookie years later was superb!

Killer Gorilla was always a favourite too, a great version of Donkey Kong. I was interested in the lost Amstrad games article, always interested in these articles regardless of platform, but was particularly interested in the Repton 3 bit, I never knew it was never released for the Amstrad, the Repton 3 adverts clearly advertised it for the usual Acorn line up, plus Commodore 64 & Amstrad, there was never a Spectrum version advertised even if it was planned it was never released. Repton 1& 2 did appear on the Spectrum in a double pack called ReptonMania but Repton 3 was never on the Spectrum.

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slacey1070
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by slacey1070 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:53 pm

I did mention a feedback thread for feedback a while ago! Only half tongue in cheek too.

I don't post much on here these days, it just became hard work, every comment leapt on, so much criticism for having a different opinion, it went from being a pleasure to out right hand work.

And I think that's reflected in the feedback threads, if you say you don't like something, someone will leap all over your opinion, trying to prove you are "wrong". Freelancers take comments about their work personally, which I do understand, but if you are paid to do something in the public eye and someone doesn't like it or disagrees, that's part of the deal.


And RG is a business, its there to make money, its not a fanzine thrown together by a few mates.... and as a customer, then its fine to feedback positively (i.e. I really like the cover this month) or negatively (i.e. I didn't like the article about a game I've never heard of)

Quite why a "war" breaks out, I really have no idea.....
Owned: Vic 20, C64, Amiga, PC, SNES, Dreamcast, PS2, Gameboy, Gameboy Colour, DS, Xbox360, PSP 2000, Wii, 3DSXL, GameCube, N64, JXD S7800.

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Lost Dragon
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Lost Dragon » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:29 pm

slacey1070 wrote:I did mention a feedback thread for feedback a while ago! Only half tongue in cheek too.

I don't post much on here these days, it just became hard work, every comment leapt on, so much criticism for having a different opinion, it went from being a pleasure to out right hand work.

And I think that's reflected in the feedback threads, if you say you don't like something, someone will leap all over your opinion, trying to prove you are "wrong". Freelancers take comments about their work personally, which I do understand, but if you are paid to do something in the public eye and someone doesn't like it or disagrees, that's part of the deal.


And RG is a business, its there to make money, its not a fanzine thrown together by a few mates.... and as a customer, then its fine to feedback positively (i.e. I really like the cover this month) or negatively (i.e. I didn't like the article about a game I've never heard of)

Quite why a "war" breaks out, I really have no idea.....
:wink: I think i love you.....


You've nailed everything a good few of us feel in 1 post.

It's been a shame to encounter any form of conflict, as there's been fantastic articles in this months issue (Thalion, Lost Games, Knights Of The Sky, etc) just because readership have a few views on what else they'd liked to have seen, picked up on a few errors, did'nt mean we did'nt appreciate the sheer 'goodness' of what was on offer.

Plus IF Thalion do get back to Laird with an answer on ST Nebulus II, the community here has just answered another 'what happened to...?' question, which would never have cropped up if Laird had'nt written the article, reader (myself in this case) asked the question.So it's a 2 way street.Feedback can springboard into yet more Retro answers, which can only be a good thing.

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crusto
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by crusto » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:50 pm

slacey1070 wrote:I did mention a feedback thread for feedback a while ago! Only half tongue in cheek too.

I don't post much on here these days, it just became hard work, every comment leapt on, so much criticism for having a different opinion, it went from being a pleasure to out right hand work.

And I think that's reflected in the feedback threads, if you say you don't like something, someone will leap all over your opinion, trying to prove you are "wrong". Freelancers take comments about their work personally, which I do understand, but if you are paid to do something in the public eye and someone doesn't like it or disagrees, that's part of the deal.


And RG is a business, its there to make money, its not a fanzine thrown together by a few mates.... and as a customer, then its fine to feedback positively (i.e. I really like the cover this month) or negatively (i.e. I didn't like the article about a game I've never heard of)


Quite why a "war" breaks out, I really have no idea.....
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psj3809
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by psj3809 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:05 am

I do agree its the feedback thread so there should be ideally good/bad feedback. If all feedback was 'the mags perfect, no changes needed' then nothing will ever improve/get better.

But there is a way to post feedback, some people seem to be so negative its difficult to take what they say seriously and it often then descends into a bit of a slagging match.

I mean people point out that some articles were from 30 issues ago or so, so they werent recent. The other issue is some people have a great knowledge of retro so they've read/known all the stories before, or theres the trainspotter club who point out the game released on page 45 was from 1982 not 1981 etc. Then theres the more casual reader.

I enjoyed the Ultimate article, glad there was one for the 30th anniversary, others didnt. As the old saying goes, its difficult to please everyone. There'll never be a month when every person in this thread says 'great issue' as you cant just please them all. I'll be bored to death with a list of the top 5 Bulgarian platformers for the Atari 8 bit or how to code a certain scrolling routine on the C16 but others will love that.

I'm sure Darran and co would love feedback good or bad as it'll help but it just seems 'sometimes' some people just want to bash the mag whatever

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retrosofer
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by retrosofer » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:30 pm

psj3809 wrote:I do agree its the feedback thread so there should be ideally good/bad feedback. If all feedback was 'the mags perfect, no changes needed' then nothing will ever improve/get better.

But there is a way to post feedback, some people seem to be so negative its difficult to take what they say seriously and it often then descends into a bit of a slagging match.

I mean people point out that some articles were from 30 issues ago or so, so they werent recent. The other issue is some people have a great knowledge of retro so they've read/known all the stories before, or theres the trainspotter club who point out the game released on page 45 was from 1982 not 1981 etc. Then theres the more casual reader.

I enjoyed the Ultimate article, glad there was one for the 30th anniversary, others didnt. As the old saying goes, its difficult to please everyone. There'll never be a month when every person in this thread says 'great issue' as you cant just please them all. I'll be bored to death with a list of the top 5 Bulgarian platformers for the Atari 8 bit or how to code a certain scrolling routine on the C16 but others will love that.

I'm sure Darran and co would love feedback good or bad as it'll help but it just seems 'sometimes' some people just want to bash the mag whatever
But there is the crux of the matter and why this thread has gone the way it has. People just want to leave the feedback they want to leave good, bad, constructive or not that they should be entitled to do so. But when they do they cant just be entitled to it, as people who have worked on the mag are like, "you'll answer to me! On guard, defend yourself." We have already been called moaners, told to grow up and had to defend what we have said, and all for leaving simple feedback some dont want to hear.

To put things into perspective I have never used a paid for servise or bought a product where I have been invited to leave feedback and then told by said employees that I was just a moaner, or have to go on the defensive and explaing myself.
A sky representative asked me once why I had left sky so I told them (it wasn't good stuff,) but the rep just wrote everything down, asked a few follow up questions and said "fair enough, thanks for your time."

Lost Dragon
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Lost Dragon » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:42 pm

psj3809 wrote:I do agree its the feedback thread so there should be ideally good/bad feedback. If all feedback was 'the mags perfect, no changes needed' then nothing will ever improve/get better.

But there is a way to post feedback, some people seem to be so negative its difficult to take what they say seriously and it often then descends into a bit of a slagging match.

I mean people point out that some articles were from 30 issues ago or so, so they werent recent. The other issue is some people have a great knowledge of retro so they've read/known all the stories before, or theres the trainspotter club who point out the game released on page 45 was from 1982 not 1981 etc. Then theres the more casual reader.

I enjoyed the Ultimate article, glad there was one for the 30th anniversary, others didnt. As the old saying goes, its difficult to please everyone. There'll never be a month when every person in this thread says 'great issue' as you cant just please them all. I'll be bored to death with a list of the top 5 Bulgarian platformers for the Atari 8 bit or how to code a certain scrolling routine on the C16 but others will love that.

I'm sure Darran and co would love feedback good or bad as it'll help but it just seems 'sometimes' some people just want to bash the mag whatever
You'll always get people wanting to 'bash the mag', but then to be fair, as long as they've paid for said mag, they can 'do what they want with it, can they not?.I've bought films, books, albums, hell plenty of cars, let alone magazines that in reflection were poor choices and often human reaction is to 'lash out'.Simple response to feeling your money could have been better spent.

The key thing to bear in mind is, as long as the RG team don't just cherry pick from a post/focus on the aspects the reader did'nt like about article X or they thought was incorrect/missing, but the post as a whole.

Reason i say this is because if a post is part quoted say a page or 2 after it was made, which often happens, any newcomers reading the thread from that page onwards, could think poster only posted in a negitive manner and was basically bashing the article/magazine, when in fact the negitive, but still constructive, critiscm was only say 25% of feedback poster actually left.

When your dealing with a publication who's focus is Retro, of course you run risk of content being done before (and elsewhere) Edge had a period of doing great Retro features, lot of us used to read Gamestm, again great Retro coverage there, let alone the mass of information online, so that's part n parcel of what RG will always be facing.Ditto that your readership already knows an awful lot about subject matter in hand, but then to balance that, how often does the team ask for the readerships help in terms of supplying information/suggestions for features/hardware/box art etc for photo's for the magazine?.

Door swings both ways in this aspect, you cannot really have RG asking for help from the readership as they've the valuable resources mag often needs and then cry 'foul' when same resource (readership) points out where magazine has 'slipped up'.

If you aim to please everyone, all the time, your a bloody fool :lol: as that's what it would be...total fools errand and then some.

Best bet is Team RG take onboard constructive critiscm as/where they feel best, respond in a professional manner and when readership corrects errors, just ensure future articles have these errors fixed.

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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Lost Dragon » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:07 pm

Also, Retrosofer is spot-on when he mentions Sky asking why he was leaving.I had similar when cancelling subs to:Empire, OXM, OPM, Gamestm, SFX, Dreamwatch etc etc magazines,plus when i cancelled contract with Talk Talk for B.B.

Each time they are sorry to see you go, but in order to better customer service, they do ask if you would'nt mind giving some details of what's meant you no longer want to buy their product's basically and i've been happy to give constructive reasons why i'm leaving-magazine no longer delivers content i want to read or the service (in Talk Talk's case) just is'nt upto scratch.It's never taken as personal, just buisness-to-client.

In fairness to RG, few times my sub.copy has'nt arrived, they've bent over backwards to help, sent replacement copy out with no fuss, never said ohh moaning that it's not arrived eh? speak to Royal Mail, we did our bit etc.Just handled an incident in a very professional manner which is a credit to themselves and company they are paid by.

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slacey1070
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by slacey1070 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:01 pm

psj3809 wrote:I do agree its the feedback thread so there should be ideally good/bad feedback. If all feedback was 'the mags perfect, no changes needed' then nothing will ever improve/get better.

But there is a way to post feedback, some people seem to be so negative its difficult to take what they say seriously and it often then descends into a bit of a slagging match.

I mean people point out that some articles were from 30 issues ago or so, so they werent recent. The other issue is some people have a great knowledge of retro so they've read/known all the stories before, or theres the trainspotter club who point out the game released on page 45 was from 1982 not 1981 etc. Then theres the more casual reader.

I enjoyed the Ultimate article, glad there was one for the 30th anniversary, others didnt. As the old saying goes, its difficult to please everyone. There'll never be a month when every person in this thread says 'great issue' as you cant just please them all. I'll be bored to death with a list of the top 5 Bulgarian platformers for the Atari 8 bit or how to code a certain scrolling routine on the C16 but others will love that.

I'm sure Darran and co would love feedback good or bad as it'll help but it just seems 'sometimes' some people just want to bash the mag whatever
Some people are negative by nature. It doesn't automatically mean they are wrong, or that their opinion isn't worthy of note. The person on the end on the end of the feedback has to be able to filter the "ok, that's a fair point" from the "ok, you hate Atari and never want the A word used again"...without making it appear like they only want "good news".

And of course the freelancers will take comments personally, hard not to, they've probably worked hard at putting together a piece that they have genuine passion for, that makes it hard to take the "I hate your piece because XYX" comments. However, feedback is about the article, not the author. Or at least it should be.

If people are merely "bashing" then, yes, that's unfortunate. But the receiver has to just block that out. As a customer, if you say "what do you think?" someone will always say "I hate it"

Taste, opinions vary wildly. An issue I will love, someone else will hate. That's life, if you deal with customers you just have to accept that's the way it is.

IF everyone hates it, then you really do have a problem!

And as David Brent said "Some of the complaints will be false".
Owned: Vic 20, C64, Amiga, PC, SNES, Dreamcast, PS2, Gameboy, Gameboy Colour, DS, Xbox360, PSP 2000, Wii, 3DSXL, GameCube, N64, JXD S7800.

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antsbull
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by antsbull » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:28 pm

Part of the problem is a lot of the feedback is the same people complaining every month about the same things - particularly, it seems to be people saying that a machine or game has had too much coverage. That kind of feedback should never be in a monthly feedback thread, if it was an actual problem, then it is a problem with the overall content of the magazine, not a particular issue.

Earlier in this thread someone was complaining about something that was last mentioned 40-50 issues ago. Another person was complaining about KnightLore being covered previously, and not covering new ground because they couldn't get any interviews with the people that wrote it - despite covering new ground such as the technical details covered by Jon Ritman. Others were trying to argue a couple of months back that the A8 shouldn't have been covered in so much detail because it wasn't popular in the UK.

Feedback on these things is not relevant to a particular issue and should be kept out of the feedback threads, as at best they will derail threads, and at worst they cause flamewars.

Lost Dragon
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Lost Dragon » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:14 pm

antsbull wrote:Part of the problem is a lot of the feedback is the same people complaining every month about the same things - particularly, it seems to be people saying that a machine or game has had too much coverage. That kind of feedback should never be in a monthly feedback thread, if it was an actual problem, then it is a problem with the overall content of the magazine, not a particular issue.

Earlier in this thread someone was complaining about something that was last mentioned 40-50 issues ago. Another person was complaining about KnightLore being covered previously, and not covering new ground because they couldn't get any interviews with the people that wrote it - despite covering new ground such as the technical details covered by Jon Ritman. Others were trying to argue a couple of months back that the A8 shouldn't have been covered in so much detail because it wasn't popular in the UK.

Feedback on these things is not relevant to a particular issue and should be kept out of the feedback threads, as at best they will derail threads, and at worst they cause flamewars.
Think the Knightlore 'issue' arose over people expecting something rather different than article they recieved, as tagline on the cover suggested something else? :? (i'm not a huge fan of Knightlore so might be barking up wrong tree here).If that was the case, then here was correct place to leave feedback, so front page designers can avoid such confusion in future issues, as for other designers commenting, well that's fair enough point, if it's used to replace interviews with actual creators and part of a much bigger look at impact game had on industry, but if your expecting interviews with creators of...get people inspired by, likely some are going to feel 'cheated' to a degree.

Regarding the same machines (and games) getting 'lions share' of coverage-your always going to get features like Strider tying in with a reboot or re-release, hardware like the NES or Atari 8 Bit range might often be done to tie-in with an celebration of... (X amount of years ago this month type thing) or might be part of I.Publishings sales drive for a specific region (i.e if market research showed a spike in sales when A8/NES were covered, stands to reason they'd want more on these 2...other formats apply :-) )


Guess people use current feedback threads as they feel it's best place to get feedback noticed.A generic, add as you go thread risks being ignored.

Poor choice of wording (brats, agenda's, spoilt, moaners etc) is enough to ignite any conflict on any feedback thread and should be avoided in future.

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retrosofer
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by retrosofer » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:42 pm

antsbull wrote:Part of the problem is a lot of the feedback is the same people complaining every month about the same things - particularly, it seems to be people saying that a machine or game has had too much coverage. That kind of feedback should never be in a monthly feedback thread, if it was an actual problem, then it is a problem with the overall content of the magazine, not a particular issue.

Earlier in this thread someone was complaining about something that was last mentioned 40-50 issues ago. Another person was complaining about KnightLore being covered previously, and not covering new ground because they couldn't get any interviews with the people that wrote it - despite covering new ground such as the technical details covered by Jon Ritman. Others were trying to argue a couple of months back that the A8 shouldn't have been covered in so much detail because it wasn't popular in the UK.

Feedback on these things is not relevant to a particular issue and should be kept out of the feedback threads, as at best they will derail threads, and at worst they cause flamewars.
But you see the problem. You say complaining, but this is the feedback thread, its not complaining, its feedback like it or not, that is what it is. Complaining is something different, you cant complain in a feedback thread, a person can only leave what is called feedback.

If you cant leave feedback in a feedback thread, then well, whats the point really. Does anyone else see the irony of creating another feedback thread for leaving feedback on RG.

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Nemesis
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Nemesis » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:57 pm

antsbull wrote:Part of the problem is a lot of the feedback is the same people complaining every month about the same things - particularly, it seems to be people saying that a machine or game has had too much coverage. That kind of feedback should never be in a monthly feedback thread, if it was an actual problem, then it is a problem with the overall content of the magazine, not a particular issue.

Earlier in this thread someone was complaining about something that was last mentioned 40-50 issues ago. Another person was complaining about KnightLore being covered previously, and not covering new ground because they couldn't get any interviews with the people that wrote it - despite covering new ground such as the technical details covered by Jon Ritman. Others were trying to argue a couple of months back that the A8 shouldn't have been covered in so much detail because it wasn't popular in the UK.

Feedback on these things is not relevant to a particular issue and should be kept out of the feedback threads, as at best they will derail threads, and at worst they cause flamewars.
So basically you want "selective" feedback because you feel that some posts are irrelevant or not worthy of being on the feedback thread. Seriously, Feedback should be an open forum and all inclusive, which means the warts'n'all mindset needs to be applied. People should be able to say what they feel about a particular issue without having to worry about whether their post fits a specific criteria for inclusion.

The editorial can easily ignore the posts which are merely based on "taste" or general feeling and concentrate on suggestions they can act upon. The only reason this feedback thread has been derailed is because there is constant criticism from certain quarters about the feedback they're getting which doesn't fit into their ideology.
Oh and if you want to do little social experiments on our forum don't post about them on your own you plum - Darren@Retro Gamer

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markopoloman
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by markopoloman » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:38 pm

For heavens sake, have we not done this to death now?

It is a feedback thread. Leave feedback about the content of issue 126 - GOOD, BAD or INDIFFERENT.

Those that don't like something, say so. If the freelancer defends his work, then by all means discuss it. No one needs to get in a hissy fit and leave the forum or accuse a 'select' few of defending the mag because they want to sniff someones backside. Likewise, the freelancers should avoid arguments over critisism. If the point is well made and leads to adult discussion, then great, but all that is happening here is 'he said/she said'.

Maybe the mag should have a poll in an issue? The forum makes up such a small amount of mag readers, yet the comments made by both sides seem to think they are the ones that are correct - in a majority... what the rest of the readers, the majority of the readers think is an unknown - so, for example, the Knight Lore article according to some was a re-hash of stuff already known and nothing new was mentioned, making it a waste of mag space. Others liked the Knight Lore section and thought it deserved its place in the mag. BUT what is the overall readership saying about it?
All because there is an opinion, it doesn't mean it is correct.

The thread started to discuss the issue in a well mannered way with more adult discussion going on - there really is no issue with that. But some of these comments are swaying way off topic and are getting all name calling and tit4tat again.

Continue with healthy feedback by all means, but as was stated earlier in the thread, I will be deleting the posts that have nothing to do with this. If you have an issue with me removing or editing your posts, by all means PM me or Darran.
OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS - http://retrocanteen.boards.net/

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PanzerGeneral
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by PanzerGeneral » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:47 am

Nice to see the censorship Nazi's strike again, honestly ladies-if you can't handle truth in all its forms maybe you should consider moderating a thread/site where your fragile sensibilities are not so open to people who don't feel the need to tow a party line.
All your actions only reinforce what I said in my deleted post, you are acting to impress and further your own silly agenda, you are not interested in feedback unless it is gushing praise or furthers your own position.
Also-try looking up the definition of moderator/moderation-it usually involves trying to help parties find a common ground-not to simply censor and rubbish the opinion of one side in favour of the other.

Lets get something straight here. I'm not s lady. I am not a Nazi. I can handle the truth. I don't have frigile sensibilities. I don't expect people to tow the party line. I try to help parties find common ground (many on here know that). I don't give a flying ferk about furthering my position :? I don't have a personal agenda.

Read my post again. Leave feedback - Good, Bad or indifferent. You simply cannot take it in, can you? The discussions have been getting better since the initial spat in this thread, hance the fact they were left even though some were still off topic, yet some have to come back in and try for some unknown reason to derail the tread again.

Leave feedback. About issue 126. Simple. Derail thread with the rubbish you have posted in this post and it will be deleted.
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