Retro Gamer - Issue 126

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crusto
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by crusto » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:45 pm

Shall we all report ourselves?
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antsbull
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by antsbull » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:34 am

psj3809 wrote:Its the feedback thread, nothing wrong with leaving feedback, but people can also give 'feedback' to the feedback !
I find it ironic, when people criticise RG in the feedback threads, but then get all upset when people do the same to their criticisms.

Its also very tiring reading the feedback threads each month where people derail them with claims about certain machines, games and interviewees getting too much attention. Complaining about a Retro Gaming magazine covering retro content just doesn't make sense, especially when its something that was in the magazine 40 issues ago.

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markopoloman
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by markopoloman » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:12 am

Blimey! This is turning into a bit of a car wreck of a feedback thread!

The feedback that has supposedly caused all this was absolutely fine - ipmarks/crusto/lost dragon all made valid points regarding their own personal views.
The RG writers have come in making perfectly valid points about their articles.

The rest just seems to be each person semi moaning whilst apologizing at the same time! :?

I'd like to also add that although the comment about 'long term readers' want this or that... how many long term readers have been approached to come to those conclusions? At the end of the day, 2 or 3 guys have said they either don't like an article or think something has been repeated - and as a % of the mags readership that is miniscule! But that doesn't make their views insignificant as at least they have made the time and effort to post their views.

Then there is the point that the writers defend their articles - and quite rightly so! And they also say they take on board what is being written in the feedback - then there is feedback about their feedback. That's all great if it is a healthy debate - this is getting pretty unhealthy. The points that have been made on both sides can't really be expanded on much further, can they? Time to move onto other articles or maybe other readers throw in their views regarding the articles in question....
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by dave3622 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:22 pm

psj3809 wrote:The second it features a 10 page write up on some 30 year old anniversary of an Oric game then i'll quit buying the mag.
I would actually welcome such an article, there's not enough coverage of the Oric in my opinion. Just goes to show that you can't please all of the people all of the time!

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HalcyonDaze00
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:43 pm

Complaining about a Retro Gaming magazine covering retro content just doesn't make sense, especially when its something that was in the magazine 40 issues ago.
nonsense

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nakamura
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by nakamura » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:28 pm

There is very little constructive feedback in this thread. Most of it is just blatant moaning and people believing they can do better.

It's easy to say 'Why didn't you do this?' when you are reading someone else's work. However when you are working to dead line and especially when you are working on multiple articles, while also trying to keep them fresh and continually come up with new ideas to take the magazine forward, then it's a lot harder.
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ipmarks
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by ipmarks » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:35 pm

nakamura wrote:There is very little constructive feedback in this thread. Most of it is just blatant moaning and people believing they can do better.

It's easy to say 'Why didn't you do this?' when you are reading someone else's work. However when you are working to dead line and especially when you are working on multiple articles, while also trying to keep them fresh and continually come up with new ideas to take the magazine forward, then it's a lot harder.
You have convinced me. I offer my apologies and I'm out of here.

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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:00 pm

ipmarks wrote:
nakamura wrote:There is very little constructive feedback in this thread. Most of it is just blatant moaning and people believing they can do better.

It's easy to say 'Why didn't you do this?' when you are reading someone else's work. However when you are working to dead line and especially when you are working on multiple articles, while also trying to keep them fresh and continually come up with new ideas to take the magazine forward, then it's a lot harder.
You have convinced me. I offer my apologies and I'm out of here.
:wink: Hold the doors, i'm right behind you...Close Ranks and quick march.....

Thought that was the concept of feedback, readership suggesting fresh ideas and such, trying to take the magazine they subscribe to forward etc, no?....
Last edited by Lost Dragon on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HalcyonDaze00
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:02 pm

You have convinced me. I offer my apologies and I'm out of here.
hopefully not another long term member (and paying customer) hounded from the forum

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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by nakamura » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:
ipmarks wrote:
nakamura wrote:There is very little constructive feedback in this thread. Most of it is just blatant moaning and people believing they can do better.

It's easy to say 'Why didn't you do this?' when you are reading someone else's work. However when you are working to dead line and especially when you are working on multiple articles, while also trying to keep them fresh and continually come up with new ideas to take the magazine forward, then it's a lot harder.
You have convinced me. I offer my apologies and I'm out of here.
:wink: Hold the doors, i'm right behind you...Close Ranks and quick march.....

Thought that was the concept of feedback, readership suggesting fresh ideas and such, trying to take the magazine they subscribe to forward etc, no?....
Pointing out the odd mistake, moaning about why X wasn't featured in an article or moaning about X being covered before and claiming there is no new content etc is not constructive feedback. Suggesting alternative ideas on how to present things, asking for items to be featured etc IS constructive feedback.
I think people need to understand just what it means.

If you read many of the posts in here, they are not feedback, they are simply moaning. The Strider feature for example had entirely new content which closed the book on a very highly rated and spectacular game. Was it too soon after the ultimate guide? Perhaps it was yes but getting content directly from this particular developer was very difficult and completely worth it. All it seems to boil down to on here is people still want their favourite stuff covered every month. I have no interest in playing a Collecovision but articles about such machines can be very informative and interesting. Retro Gamer is simple, you get out what you are prepared to put in.

The simple fact is articles do not grow on trees. There isn't an infinite pool of high quality readily produced items out there. The magazine is produced with a lot of freelance work and it is generally supplied as freelancers can.

Freelancers are also not employed by Imagine and work is all completed in our own time.

For example, I spent hours researching for an interview this year and so far I have had no reply despite an agreement being made. That is roughly 6-8 hours of work that will go unpaid. There is no guarantee the interview will come back now so it is my personal time and effort gone.
Should I give up? This is not the first and wont be the last time it will happen. Or should I soldier on, potentially wasting more of my own time to have articles torn to pieces on this supposed feedback page?

Constructive IE suggestive feedback is superb. As writers, it is impossible to improve without it. Shouting this is missing and that is missing and this was incorrect etc doesn't really help at all. I have had plenty of it via my blog on Twitter. I have used a few writing styles to test things out and people have replied to me with genuine ideas about how to present things. This has helped me greatly. Nothing in here would.
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by NorthWay » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:22 pm

There is not only constructive or non-constructive feedback. There is also something called taste.
I imagine RG would actually like to hear what their readers _like_ (or not). Stating reasons should not be required, but encouraged. Other people disagreeing with you should be expected.

Formally, RG might want to add some internal rules that article writers do not reply to _opinions_, but are free to post facts (as long as they are not pushed in front of them as opinions) and let Darran front the opinionated parts. To this you might disagree, as I would expect you to!

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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:45 pm

nakamura wrote:
Pointing out the odd mistake, moaning about why X wasn't featured in an article or moaning about X being covered before and claiming there is no new content etc is not constructive feedback. Suggesting alternative ideas on how to present things, asking for items to be featured etc IS constructive feedback.
I think people need to understand just what it means.

If you read many of the posts in here, they are not feedback, they are simply moaning. The Strider feature for example had entirely new content which closed the book on a very highly rated and spectacular game. Was it too soon after the ultimate guide? Perhaps it was yes but getting content directly from this particular developer was very difficult and completely worth it. All it seems to boil down to on here is people still want their favourite stuff covered every month. I have no interest in playing a Collecovision but articles about such machines can be very informative and interesting. Retro Gamer is simple, you get out what you are prepared to put in.

The simple fact is articles do not grow on trees. There isn't an infinite pool of high quality readily produced items out there. The magazine is produced with a lot of freelance work and it is generally supplied as freelancers can.

Freelancers are also not employed by Imagine and work is all completed in our own time.

For example, I spent hours researching for an interview this year and so far I have had no reply despite an agreement being made. That is roughly 6-8 hours of work that will go unpaid. There is no guarantee the interview will come back now so it is my personal time and effort gone.
Should I give up? This is not the first and wont be the last time it will happen. Or should I soldier on, potentially wasting more of my own time to have articles torn to pieces on this supposed feedback page?

Constructive IE suggestive feedback is superb. As writers, it is impossible to improve without it. Shouting this is missing and that is missing and this was incorrect etc doesn't really help at all. I have had plenty of it via my blog on Twitter. I have used a few writing styles to test things out and people have replied to me with genuine ideas about how to present things. This has helped me greatly. Nothing in here would.

I need to 'wrap' this up/give others a chance to reply and to be blunt, do much more with my time then get caught up in all this, but:

If the same mistake crops up twice in an article, which it has in the Strider piece, you'd not expect readers to point out how odd it's still there, despite being spotted the 1st time around, even when the manner in which the mistake was reported was constructive, even going as far as to name the coder responsible? Find that a tad odd, surely the magazine would look to correct errors that crept in?


Being open about what you, the paying customer/reader enjoyed about an article, that's fine, but as soon as same reader/customer say's: 'this however did'nt work as well and that was because of...i'd have liked to have seen...perhaps in future articles you could try...' this apparently according to the 'inner circle' (and that includes staff writers outside those who actually wrote the articles in question) is now classed as 'moaning' ???.Ok then, i wish the team the very best of luck getting feedback in future issues...

Freelancers..are not employed, don't think anyones claimed they were, what was said, and i believe is true, is that they were paid for the articles in question, be it per page or word, i've no idea, nor does it matter.Simple facts are:they've been asked to write or submitted an article, it's been approved, they have been or will be paid for it, it's in print, now it's time for paying reader to give personal thoughts, in their spare time, for free.

I pay into a company pension, the firm has currently taken out of said pension several hundred million to reduce it's debt to the banks to a mere £300 Million.I still pay into that pension, yet have no idea if the money will be there when i retire.It's a risk i'm aware of, so should i give up paying into it?.

As a writer, do any of you go in blind when approaching an article?, i'd hope not, you have to take that risk, ditto that people are going to respond in a positive manner when it's in print, if not, best you can do is accept fact at least you got payed and also try and pick up on what went wrong, constructive critiscm would point you in that direction.

Facts being 'wrong' sorry, but again, this is paid for work, readers expect a degree of research, plus your being published in a specialised publication that often asks it's readership for help with articles, so expects the readership to be a resource, in terms of knowledge to be called apon, you guys/girls cannot cry 'foul' when same readership points out facts that are incorrect, espically when staff writers themselves been happy to do the same on others work on here in the past, plus other forums.there cannot be 1 rule for freelancers, 1 for readership/forum members...

As for 'shouting this is missing':well given how many repeat articles there have been in RG, do you not feel perhaps what 'we' are 'shouting' is..can we see this covered the next time around please? or am i thinking on a different plain here?

Just strikes me as odd that we've basically said it'd been nice to have seen and this drum roll please...can we see featured next time around, X, Y and Z please? , (hell maybe like C64 Myth on cart , freelancer did'nt even know of it until a reader made them aware of it, so we've helped them to a degree), is clased as us finding fault now.


You might think i'm being harsh/unfair etc, but i'd just say this:


I believe in the magazine to the point where not only do i freely give time to the forum, have been a paying subscriber for years, but have actively pushed for a poster on here to submit his work to Darran in hope he joins Team RG as a freelancer as i really feel he's the talent that'll nuture the magazine further.

If i just wanted to come here for a p*ss and moan post, i would'nt waste the hours i have on feedback or nudging said poster in Darran's direction.

My fear is, having seen likes of Ipmarks+Crusto to name but 2 having to basically 'retract' feedback comments, that the wrong message is being sent out and the RG Clique claims will surface again and people just don't bother to post feedback.

Sure, this thread is a giggle for many, great..pull up a chair, but on a far more serious note, if people do stop posting feedback or leave forum, are the numbers there to replace them?.

As for Twitter:Cannot comment, never used it, nor likely to.

Bottom line is:as writers, your going to have to accept the your being paid, your work going in a professional publication, not a blog or website page or digital only magazine, but something sat on a newstand/delivered to the door and yes, folks will go through articles with a fine tooth comb.You need to stop thinking it's personal, just because feedback comes via a community forum, this is I.Publishings forum,based on the magazine.By all means reply to feedback, i welcome it, but this defensive approach espically when other freelancers than those who wrote articles in question suddenly 'pitch in' is sending out mixed messages.
Last edited by Lost Dragon on Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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crusto
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by crusto » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:59 pm

@Nakamura

I post my feedback in an entirely selfish manner, I'm a paying customer after all. I don't look at the bigger picture, just the one that interests me. If I like something I will say so, if I don't I will say so, and I make no apologies for it. And I try to be as reasonable as possible when I say what I say, but sometimes fail. I'm human after all.

If I threw my teddies out of the pram every time I got a bit of criticism at work I would have been unemployed for years.
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Lost Dragon
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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:05 pm

crusto wrote:@Nakamura

I post my feedback in an entirely selfish manner, I'm a paying customer after all. I don't look at the bigger picture, just the one that interests me. If I like something I will say so, if I don't I will say so, and I make no apologies for it. And I try to be as reasonable as possible when I say what I say, but sometimes fail. I'm human after all.

If I threw my teddies out of the pram every time I got a bit of criticism at work I would have been unemployed for years.
:lol: in past 2 days shifts Crusto, i was called into an 'attack Meeting' at work (yesterday) and told by my floor manager i'd made him look like a c**t for pointing out what was wrong with the line/machine i operate (been doing the job 11 years now, he's been there just under 2) and then got a similar comment from my Team Leader this morning.I smiled and stayed reasonable both times as the money, for area i work in, bloody good.

I had to accept i was being paid, and whilst they wanted my 'expertise', such as it was, they sure as hell did'nt want the less than positive comments, but they got'em anyway...

But once air had cleared, we all got on, as professionals do, with job in hand.None of us thought other was being personal.

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Re: Retro Gamer - Issue 126

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:11 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:The number of handbags in this thread is hilarious. Best thread for ages.
Handbags? ohh my love NO!

why i've yet to pick the dress and then there's the hat, and ohhh my the shoes and then there's the matching purse to think of....

:lol:

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