Retro Gamer Issue 104

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Rev. Stuart Campbell
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Rev. Stuart Campbell » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:36 am

noobish hat wrote:
Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:Good grief. The original point was that previous football games had used totally different perspectives. The point within that isn't the overhead view, it's the DISTANCE of the overhead view. (Kick Off's is almost identical to Microprose Soccer's. Sensi's is much higher up.) This discussion is getting too stupid.


Worse than zombies vs mummies? :D
I don't think anything could ever be worse than zombies vs mummies...

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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Hiro » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:40 am

Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:Good grief. The original point was that previous football games had used totally different perspectives. The point within that isn't the overhead view, it's the DISTANCE of the overhead view. (Kick Off's is almost identical to Microprose Soccer's. Sensi's is much higher up.) This discussion is getting too stupid.
Not really, distance and most of all pitch size are different, as well as overhead map, cartoonish-style, etc. MS is much more like Tehkan World Cup than KO is like MS. But I was pretty sure of an answer like this, and of my other points being overlooked. It was a waste of time, as was reading the article. My mistake.

The Vectrex article was quite interesting... didn't know that so many peripherals were released for it :shock:
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Darran@Retro Gamer » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:47 am

Hiro wrote:
Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:Good grief. The original point was that previous football games had used totally different perspectives. The point within that isn't the overhead view, it's the DISTANCE of the overhead view. (Kick Off's is almost identical to Microprose Soccer's. Sensi's is much higher up.) This discussion is getting too stupid.
Not really, distance and most of all pitch size are different, as well as overhead map, cartoonish-style, etc. MS is much more like Tehkan World Cup than KO is like MS. But I was pretty sure of an answer like this, and of my other points being overlooked. It was a waste of time, as was reading the article. My mistake.

The Vectrex article was quite interesting... didn't know that so many peripherals were released for it :shock:
Did you know that stuart wasn't a fan before you read it?
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Rev. Stuart Campbell
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Rev. Stuart Campbell » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:56 am

Hiro wrote:Not really, distance and most of all pitch size are different, as well as overhead map, cartoonish-style, etc. MS is much more like Tehkan World Cup than KO is like MS.
Who said otherwise? All I said was that it copied the VIEWPOINT. I have no idea why you're disputing that, since it's staggeringly obviously correct.

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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Hiro » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:59 am

Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:Did you know that stuart wasn't a fan before you read it?
It was pretty obvious from the start, I don't read only things written by people who think like me, and I think it's pretty clear that the point is not that an article on game X can be only written by someone who likes game X. I didn't expect a "positive" article, I didn't expect it to be that bad, amateurish and shallow. Anyway, I think I've stated my points and said everything I had to. Uselessly, probably. Signing off.
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by jdanddiet » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:10 am

sorry man but everytime I see you posting I just think

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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Darran@Retro Gamer » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:15 am

Hiro wrote:
Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:Did you know that stuart wasn't a fan before you read it?
I didn't expect it to be that bad, amateurish and shallow. Anyway, I think I've stated my points
Except it wasn't amateurish, bad or shallow. Stuart doesn't write like that. You don't like the feature because one of your precious games got trashed. I understand that, but don't make out it was something that it wasn't. We've still not seen any proof yet of proper factual mistakes other than the colection mention. And if oyu can't see the viewpoint point Stuart was trying to make when pictures are placed in front of you then there's simply no point arguing as no one is ever going to agree.

It once again comes down to people confusing a person's opinion as fact because they've seen it written in print.
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by noobish hat » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:18 am

So Strider isn't actually that good then?
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Hiro » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:28 am

Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:Except it wasn't amateurish, bad or shallow. Stuart doesn't write like that. You don't like the feature because one of your precious games got trashed. I understand that, but don't make out it was something that it wasn't. We've still not seen any proof yet of proper factual mistakes other than the colection mention. And if oyu can't see the viewpoint point Stuart was trying to make when pictures are placed in front of you then there's simply no point arguing as no one is ever going to agree.

It once again comes down to people confusing a person's opinion as fact because they've seen it written in print.
Except I posted more than one fact, argued why saying KO copying "to the centimetre" MS viewpoint (already used by other games, and certainly not a carbon-copy of MS view) isn't correct, and I don't even like Kick Off that much. Still, it's only a question of hardcore KO fans disrespecting somebody else's opinion. Ok.
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Darran@Retro Gamer » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:52 pm

Hiro wrote: Except I posted more than one fact, argued why saying KO copying "to the centimetre" MS viewpoint (already used by other games, and certainly not a carbon-copy of MS view) isn't correct, and I don't even like Kick Off that much. Still, it's only a question of hardcore KO fans disrespecting somebody else's opinion. Ok.
So you are a hardcore kick off fan. Good for you.
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Rev. Stuart Campbell » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:31 pm

Hiro wrote:Except I posted more than one fact, argued why saying KO copying "to the centimetre" MS viewpoint (already used by other games, and certainly not a carbon-copy of MS view) isn't correct,
Yes it is. Look at the pictures. They're at identical heights, where almost but not quite all of the centre circle fits onto the screen. If the overall pitch size is different, that's nothing to do with the VIEWPOINT.

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Rev. Stuart Campbell
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Rev. Stuart Campbell » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:36 pm

Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:We've still not seen any proof yet of proper factual mistakes other than the colection mention.
Much as I hate to quibble with anyone who's defending me :D, that's not actually a mistake either. I didn't say the collection WASN'T available on other formats, I just said that it was SUPPOSEDLY available on other formats but I hadn't been able to find evidence confirming it. (And in fact I still haven't seen evidence for it, just someone CLAIMING to have multiple versions.) Unlike other writers - not on RG, of course - I don't just copy down whatever I find on Wikipedia, ASSUME it's correct and parrot it back to my readers. If I can't verify it for myself with my own eyes, I don't say it.

Here's what was actually written, and I presume how it appeared in the mag:
While the compilation allegedly existed for the Amiga and other formats, the only version we've ever found solid evidence for is the Spectrum one

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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by gman72 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:53 pm

noobish hat wrote:So Strider isn't actually that good then?
yes it is and so were those N64 Castlevanias actually. :D
Last edited by gman72 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by gman72 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:54 pm

Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:
noobish hat wrote:
Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:Good grief. The original point was that previous football games had used totally different perspectives. The point within that isn't the overhead view, it's the DISTANCE of the overhead view. (Kick Off's is almost identical to Microprose Soccer's. Sensi's is much higher up.) This discussion is getting too stupid.


Worse than zombies vs mummies? :D
I don't think anything could ever be worse than zombies vs mummies...
Strippers Vs Werewolves ?
“To gain your own voice, you have to forget about having it heard.” —Allen Ginsberg, WD

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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Post by Hiro » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:07 pm

Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:Yes it is. Look at the pictures. They're at identical heights, where almost but not quite all of the centre circle fits onto the screen. If the overall pitch size is different, that's nothing to do with the VIEWPOINT.
It's about the same height, only the proportions are totally different, in MS players are bigger, pitch is smaller because it's not an 11-a-side game. It's just that MS had the proportions "off", so even if the height of the camera is similar, it's just a totally different approach. Had you said that MS viewpoint had inspired or was similar to KO's, I would have agreed. You said that it was copied to the centimetre, I don't. And this doesn't imply that KO is "prettiest", it isn't, graphics have never been KO's strong point. I think KO owes nothing to MS in terms of viewpoint: it's a different approach with different proportions and players, ball and pitch size. Same camera height maybe, not "copied by the centimetre", no. But at least your answer is what I'd call "feedback". Not being sarcastic here.
Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:We've still not seen any proof yet of proper factual mistakes other than the colection mention.
What about the "barely 100 games for the Amiga in 1990"? Just to say one.
Darran@Retro Gamer wrote: So you are a hardcore kick off fan. Good for you.
It was one of the first batch of games I got for the Amiga, and KO2 was a present. I've played them enough to have some experience, like them now, liked them more at the time. KO being one of the first games I had on the Amy has some more value to me, that doesn't mean they're "precious" to me, or to anybody that thinks the article was rubbish.
There are several "retro" footies that I like better, Emlyn Hughes, SWOS, Lothar Matthaus, World Cup 90 (I'm probably the only one on this planet), Total Football. That's because it just has to be "You're a maniac fan of KO, so you disrespect an opinion and criticise the article just because of that"? Because honestly that's the impression I got by posting here.
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