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Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:51 am
by Hiro
I really wouldn't want to belabour this any longer, but since I've criticised the article in the first place, I have read it again and I'll make some points. Note: my points are mainly on the first games, the ones developed by Dino Dini, I think those were the "true" KOs that were treated unfairly, the most recent ones are actually mainly rubbish.

- The initial comparison with Rise or the Robots or E.T. is already terrible. Comparing appalling games like these to Kick Off is not exactly sign of good faith.

- The only good rating that are quoted are derided quoting the 50% given to RotR by Amiga Computing. Surely AC reviewed hundreds of games and maybe was even strict with votes sometime, but hey, let's quote the only review and rating that's "useful"...

- "Success for KO2 was short lived, in a time when there were barely 100 games for the Amiga" is a total fabrication. Check HOL or whatever Amiga site you want, and you'll find that by 1990 hundreds of commercial games were released, well over the two thousand mark.

- "Tiny band of fanatical supporters", etc is totally out of line. I like KO, KO2 and most of all Player Manager. Do I think KO is a masterpiece? Is KO the best footy ever? Hell no. And I think most of its fans acknowledge its flaws. But we're not a bunch of crazy maniacs.

- Praise for Micro Soccer is excessive in my opinion, a simple footy with no free kicks, no penalties, small pitch, you can't do anything but always score the same way and you can't even enter the penalty area. But anyway, KO "copying Micro Soccer viewpoint almost to the centimetre" is again very wrong. Both games share the bird's eye view, but if you look at screenshot of the two games, how can you say KO's a copy? Smaller players, 11 players on the field, wider view. And it's not like that MS invented that kind of view. Saying KO copied MS is like saying that MS copied Into the Eagles Nest. And yes, I know Into the Eagles Nest is not a football game.

- Defining KO2 a KO data disk is bs. Gameplay was totally different, more ball control, better AI, many bugs solved, a lot more options, better keepers. They're totally different games.

- Saying that the better keepers spoiled the game is very questionable to say the least. Experienced players actually could exploit their weaknesses (converging and shooting diagonally to the 1st post, shooting straight towards the goal and using the "double effect" to curve the shot out of their reach) and take advantage of their experience.


And I've made my points only from a couple of pages. Me or others could probably (disagree with me or) find more, but reading the article again has already been quite a pain.


So, I think we're all here because we like the mag, I wouldn't be here and wouldn't be a subscriber if I didn't. Still this is a topic for feedback, and complaints even if we love RG are to be expected, or otherwise we would all be here just to say how beautiful and perfect the mag is. The fact that 10-15 people complain about something doesn't mean they're right, but it also doesn't mean that it's only them among all the readers that think that way, and I think that critics towards the KO article have made their points, so you can disagree but if you say that they complain just for the sake of it, that they are a few blind KO hardcore lovers, that they're spoiled brats, etc it's just not true.


Sorry about the long post, I won't pester again on this. I'll just finish with a "comprehensive guide" to the KO article.

It's crap.

And I haven't even wasted 8 pages of precious paper.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:32 am
by Rev. Stuart Campbell
DreamcastRIP wrote: Yes, it is an answer. It may not be to your liking but there it is.
It's not an answer, it's an evasion, which is the exact opposite of an answer.

The Neo-Geo thread was a car-crash because of precisely what you're doing now.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:43 am
by Scapegoat
Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:
The Neo-Geo thread was a car-crash because of precisely what you're doing now.
In fairness the Neo_Geo car crash consisted of monumental arse-hattery, this by comparison is a gentle discussion over a pint in a pleasant pub garden.

The article was still good though.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:24 am
by Darran@Retro Gamer
Hiro wrote:I really wouldn't want to belabour this any longer, but since I've criticised the article in the first place, I have read it again and I'll make some points. Note: my points are mainly on the first games, the ones developed by Dino Dini, I think those were the "true" KOs that were treated unfairly, the most recent ones are actually mainly rubbish.

- The initial comparison with Rise or the Robots or E.T. is already terrible. Comparing appalling games like these to Kick Off is not exactly sign of good faith.

- The only good rating that are quoted are derided quoting the 50% given to RotR by Amiga Computing. Surely AC reviewed hundreds of games and maybe was even strict with votes sometime, but hey, let's quote the only review and rating that's "useful"...

- "Success for KO2 was short lived, in a time when there were barely 100 games for the Amiga" is a total fabrication. Check HOL or whatever Amiga site you want, and you'll find that by 1990 hundreds of commercial games were released, well over the two thousand mark.

- "Tiny band of fanatical supporters", etc is totally out of line. I like KO, KO2 and most of all Player Manager. Do I think KO is a masterpiece? Is KO the best footy ever? Hell no. And I think most of its fans acknowledge its flaws. But we're not a bunch of crazy maniacs.

- Praise for Micro Soccer is excessive in my opinion, a simple footy with no free kicks, no penalties, small pitch, you can't do anything but always score the same way and you can't even enter the penalty area. But anyway, KO "copying Micro Soccer viewpoint almost to the centimetre" is again very wrong. Both games share the bird's eye view, but if you look at screenshot of the two games, how can you say KO's a copy? Smaller players, 11 players on the field, wider view. And it's not like that MS invented that kind of view. Saying KO copied MS is like saying that MS copied Into the Eagles Nest. And yes, I know Into the Eagles Nest is not a football game.

- Defining KO2 a KO data disk is bs. Gameplay was totally different, more ball control, better AI, many bugs solved, a lot more options, better keepers. They're totally different games.

- Saying that the better keepers spoiled the game is very questionable to say the least. Experienced players actually could exploit their weaknesses (converging and shooting diagonally to the 1st post, shooting straight towards the goal and using the "double effect" to curve the shot out of their reach) and take advantage of their experience.


And I've made my points only from a couple of pages. Me or others could probably (disagree with me or) find more, but reading the article again has already been quite a pain.


So, I think we're all here because we like the mag, I wouldn't be here and wouldn't be a subscriber if I didn't. Still this is a topic for feedback, and complaints even if we love RG are to be expected, or otherwise we would all be here just to say how beautiful and perfect the mag is. The fact that 10-15 people complain about something doesn't mean they're right, but it also doesn't mean that it's only them among all the readers that think that way, and I think that critics towards the KO article have made their points, so you can disagree but if you say that they complain just for the sake of it, that they are a few blind KO hardcore lovers, that they're spoiled brats, etc it's just not true.


Sorry about the long post, I won't pester again on this. I'll just finish with a "comprehensive guide" to the KO article.

It's crap.

And I haven't even wasted 8 pages of precious paper.
So to sum up. You love Kick Off and don't like our article. That could have been addressed 20 odd pages ago :)

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:28 am
by noobish hat
What I'd like to know is what the hell happened to Paul Davies' page? Did the designer mean to go back to finish doing the layout later, and then forget? Where's the rest of the page? It looks WEIRD!

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:36 am
by Hiro
Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:So to sum up. You love Kick Off and don't like our article. That could have been addressed 20 odd pages ago :)
As I said, I like KO, like KO2 a bit more (even if when I load a KO game, more often it's KO1), I really liked Player Manager. Don't really like the other games of the franchise, the ones without Dino Dini's input were actually pretty terrible. And I like other football games more. But that's my opinion of course, I just stated some of the points where I found the article to be totally unfair or biased if not factually wrong.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:44 am
by pratty
DreamcastRIP wrote:
gman72 wrote:... The authors published opinion does not become gospel just because it's published, right?
According to one person at least, it does,
killbot wrote:The reasons why Kick Off is horrendous are well detailed in the latest issue of the mag.
(Post quoted from forum's main section)
That just tells me that Killbot and the KO article are in agreement. Without any additional context the quote you've provided from Killbot simply says he thinks Kick Off was horrendous, and the reasons why (albeit opinion) can be read in the magazine. In no way is that statement saying the KO article is undisputable fact.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:13 am
by Rev. Stuart Campbell
Hiro wrote:But anyway, KO "copying Micro Soccer viewpoint almost to the centimetre" is again very wrong. Both games share the bird's eye view, but if you look at screenshot of the two games, how can you say KO's a copy?
Microprose Soccer:

Image

Kick Off:

Image

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:18 am
by The Laird
Tehkan World Cup (1985)

Image

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:19 am
by noobish hat
Yep, that looks like football alright.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:43 am
by slacey1070
And if you have watched any of Euro 2012, you'll see a camera shot at kick off that looks like that too.

Kick off didn't copy micropose soccer. Kick off copied football.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:46 am
by Hiro
Into the Eagle's Nest (1987)
Image

And no, it doesn't look like football. But clearly Kick Off is an Into the Eagle's Nest rip-off... isn't it?
slacey1070 wrote:Kick off didn't copy micropose soccer. Kick off copied football.
Exactly.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:19 am
by Rev. Stuart Campbell
Good grief. The original point was that previous football games had used totally different perspectives. The point within that isn't the overhead view, it's the DISTANCE of the overhead view. (Kick Off's is almost identical to Microprose Soccer's. Sensi's is much higher up.) This discussion is getting too stupid.

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:22 am
by Mayhem
On a complete different topic now, to change the subject... for all of you who read my Vectrex collecting guide in this month's issue and thought "I'll never have a chance to own a Vectorcade"... think again hah hah... someone's put one up for sale! Probably coincidence...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0935245921

I'm not gonna make any claims about what price it might end on though!

Re: Retro Gamer Issue 104

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:27 am
by noobish hat
Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:Good grief. The original point was that previous football games had used totally different perspectives. The point within that isn't the overhead view, it's the DISTANCE of the overhead view. (Kick Off's is almost identical to Microprose Soccer's. Sensi's is much higher up.) This discussion is getting too stupid.


Worse than zombies vs mummies? :D