Issue 73 feedback

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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by TwoHeadedBoy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:25 am

Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:
TwoHeadedBoy wrote:
BUT, can't really see the relevance of Darren's introduction this month? Talking about the new add-ons for consoles? Maybe if he referred back to the 32X or something, but the "time will tell" aspect of it all seems a bit Edge-like to me.
Yes the 32X bit was cut. It's basically a piece on how videogaming keeps going in circles and if the industry paid attention to its past it wouldn't have so many issues with its present. The very fact I'm having to explain it suggests it wasn't a good editorial. I'll write about Strider next month.
Makes a bit more sense now, cheers. I could sort of see where you were going with it, but yeah, Strider! Strider 2's better by the way :wink:
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by Duddyroar » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:56 pm

Regarding the ColecoVision feature, Eric Bromley has since gotten his copy of the magazine and has emailed me with some points he wanted to make.

He and Dave Johnson (the other ColecoVision chap I interviewed) obviously didn't see each other's replies before they were printed and Eric wanted to set the record straight on a couple of things. I've asked for his permission to reproduce these comments here - so here goes:
(1) The famous 11 second delay before each cartridge was not “about branding”. It was a software error. From my arcade days I had four or five reaction time rules. These came out of pinball design tactics and my later experience with handheld games. After careful measurement and testing, both I and the marketing guys agreed upon a 3.5 second delay which would have been ample to allow the screen to be read, and still not be annoying. Because of a code error (the timing loop repeat number) the 3.5 seconds turned out to be 11 seconds. We had already confirmed the chip. Any change would have delayed production. We all lived with the 11 seconds which felt like forever.

(2) Davy Johnson said: “The deals were a mystery…etc”
I had new concept in game design. At that time and probably its still the same, a single programmer locked himself/herself away and wrote the entire game. They then gave it up to the production people who implemented the manufactured game board or cartridge. At the time of ColecoVision, these people were hard to find on the east coast, and wanted way to much money to develop each game. We needed twenty or thirty games immediately to show that the console had a library. The solution was to create a many headed game designer. My first rule was to separate the “game design group” from the coding group. This had many advantages. First, I could tap into the many (almost always) guys who were into creating “role playing games”. Most of my game designers came out of this group. They were imaginative and creative and mostly underpaid or not paid at all. While I paid them far less than the standard of a arcade game designer, they were able to move to Hartford, and live far better than they had done before. And still, do what they loved. The other advantage was that one-headed game programmers often created game play that was easy to code. When it came to a hard coding problem, they often changed the game play to conform to the code they had already written. Now I had one group who didn’t want to have a single game play function changed, and another who usually said “that can’t be done”. The outcome of this conflict, was much better game play than our competitors. The game design group reported directly to me, thus they had no fear of getting beaten down by the coding group. Also, one of my favorite tactics, when I got “it can’t be done” was to say: “OK, don’t worry, I’ll do it myself”. No one ever let me do it.

A really good coding group was easy to assemble since they did not have to have any game design experience. I could then get a much better end product from people who were used to writing structured, top down code with annotations. Thus coding was easier and faster to debug, and modify. There were a number of cardinal rules which I created. The most important was that any code that involved a timing loop must be modifiable with a single entry. Thus reaction time or readability could be tested and adjusted by the game designer or me within a few minutes. The other thing about the coding was the operating system itself. It contained a library of calls, which enabled the coder to perform video game movements with a single instruction. This allowed more executions per frame, and more per cartridge ROM – which was controlled the cost.

The third group of the three headed designer was the graphics design group. Once again we could easily hire people who had talent but no game design experience. We hired our “Pixelators” as we called them based on their willingness to learn how to create game graphics based on pixels, instead of lines and texture. Davy was a very fast learner and soon created “pixelator template boards” which allowed designers with no game experience at all to create, by far, the best video graphics of any home game. All they saw was a “Game Description” from the game design group, and the actual video game which arrived and was put in our “War Room” as it was called. The game designer took the essential play of the arcade game and reduced it to the ability of our chip set to re-create it. Since there was absolutely no way to re-use the original arcade code (which was very often “spaghetti code” – an un-annotated) we had to start from scratch. Thus we really had to create a “new game” which made the player feel as if it were the original game. That was the talent and effectiveness of the game design group. The initial group was experienced in doing this, because a few years before ColecoVision, we had created a football game called Mr. Quarterback, and its sequel “Head to Head Football” using 96 LEDS shaped as little bars which blinked on and off. People played this game and thought they were playing football.
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by joefish » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:24 am

joefish wrote:Happy to see the iPhone coverage reined in a bit, too.
CraigGrannell wrote:Pretty ironic statement, given that this issue has more iPhone/iPod touch reviews in it than any issue I can remember of the mag, including those with a specific mobile gaming DPS.
Then let me rephrase that - it was easier to ignore! Clearly a triumph of layout...

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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by CraigGrannell » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:21 am

I guess so. Personally, I prefer the integration, although I wish the team would stop picking duds to review, since there are a lot of really fine retro-oriented iPod games out there. (Also, that PMCE score is the harshest I've seen in Retro Gamer, given that the mag usually scores fairly highly, even for iffy games.)
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by the_hawk » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:40 am

That accolade should surely go to "Prinny: Can I Really Be the Hero?" An excellent game and the greatest original 2D platformer in years & it only got 53% or something like that.

And you could play it on an actual real games console, as opposed to a telephone. :wink:

I'd actually noticed the iphone reviews being more plentiful this month, but as more & more people have one I guess it doesn't bug me like it used to, I just skim over them in the same way I do Xbox 360 & PS3 reviews.
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by joefish » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:43 am

I thought that double-page spread from a while ago was overkill. Maybe there are more reviews, but keeping them mixed in with the other platforms certainly looks more balanced.

But if all the reviews are going to say is 'yep, looks good, but the fake joystick touch-screen controls are crap' then I don't see the point in doing so many. Anyone who owns one should have figured that out by now. If it's going to be a review of an original game that use tilt and touch to best effect, then that's a review for another magazine. If it's going to be a review of a retro game that no longer has the original joystick or joypad control then it's already hampered by the platform. Anything that manages both would be worth seeing, but so far, not so many of those...

Emulator development and the re-appearance of classic games on a new platform is still interesting, but to me, the coverage of iPhone games looks like signs of a struggle to find a retro gaming platform in modern times. Why not have more looks at retro-styled Flash games? There's only usually one mentioned per issue and there must be loads of new ones every day. Maybe it's too hard to find any that are worth even loading up amongst all the dross. Hey, what could be more retro than that?

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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by Mickey T » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:54 am

Duddyroar wrote:Regarding the ColecoVision feature, Eric Bromley has since gotten his copy of the magazine and has emailed me with some points he wanted to make.

He and Dave Johnson (the other ColecoVision chap I interviewed) obviously didn't see each other's replies before they were printed and Eric wanted to set the record straight on a couple of things. I've asked for his permission to reproduce these comments here - so here goes:
(1) The famous 11 second delay before each cartridge was not “about branding”. It was a software error. From my arcade days I had four or five reaction time rules. These came out of pinball design tactics and my later experience with handheld games. After careful measurement and testing, both I and the marketing guys agreed upon a 3.5 second delay which would have been ample to allow the screen to be read, and still not be annoying. Because of a code error (the timing loop repeat number) the 3.5 seconds turned out to be 11 seconds. We had already confirmed the chip. Any change would have delayed production. We all lived with the 11 seconds which felt like forever.

(2) Davy Johnson said: “The deals were a mystery…etc”
I had new concept in game design. At that time and probably its still the same, a single programmer locked himself/herself away and wrote the entire game. They then gave it up to the production people who implemented the manufactured game board or cartridge. At the time of ColecoVision, these people were hard to find on the east coast, and wanted way to much money to develop each game. We needed twenty or thirty games immediately to show that the console had a library. The solution was to create a many headed game designer. My first rule was to separate the “game design group” from the coding group. This had many advantages. First, I could tap into the many (almost always) guys who were into creating “role playing games”. Most of my game designers came out of this group. They were imaginative and creative and mostly underpaid or not paid at all. While I paid them far less than the standard of a arcade game designer, they were able to move to Hartford, and live far better than they had done before. And still, do what they loved. The other advantage was that one-headed game programmers often created game play that was easy to code. When it came to a hard coding problem, they often changed the game play to conform to the code they had already written. Now I had one group who didn’t want to have a single game play function changed, and another who usually said “that can’t be done”. The outcome of this conflict, was much better game play than our competitors. The game design group reported directly to me, thus they had no fear of getting beaten down by the coding group. Also, one of my favorite tactics, when I got “it can’t be done” was to say: “OK, don’t worry, I’ll do it myself”. No one ever let me do it.

A really good coding group was easy to assemble since they did not have to have any game design experience. I could then get a much better end product from people who were used to writing structured, top down code with annotations. Thus coding was easier and faster to debug, and modify. There were a number of cardinal rules which I created. The most important was that any code that involved a timing loop must be modifiable with a single entry. Thus reaction time or readability could be tested and adjusted by the game designer or me within a few minutes. The other thing about the coding was the operating system itself. It contained a library of calls, which enabled the coder to perform video game movements with a single instruction. This allowed more executions per frame, and more per cartridge ROM – which was controlled the cost.

The third group of the three headed designer was the graphics design group. Once again we could easily hire people who had talent but no game design experience. We hired our “Pixelators” as we called them based on their willingness to learn how to create game graphics based on pixels, instead of lines and texture. Davy was a very fast learner and soon created “pixelator template boards” which allowed designers with no game experience at all to create, by far, the best video graphics of any home game. All they saw was a “Game Description” from the game design group, and the actual video game which arrived and was put in our “War Room” as it was called. The game designer took the essential play of the arcade game and reduced it to the ability of our chip set to re-create it. Since there was absolutely no way to re-use the original arcade code (which was very often “spaghetti code” – an un-annotated) we had to start from scratch. Thus we really had to create a “new game” which made the player feel as if it were the original game. That was the talent and effectiveness of the game design group. The initial group was experienced in doing this, because a few years before ColecoVision, we had created a football game called Mr. Quarterback, and its sequel “Head to Head Football” using 96 LEDS shaped as little bars which blinked on and off. People played this game and thought they were playing football.
whoa! what a great update to an already standout feature, it never ceases to amaze me how much scope there was to do things differently in the insdustry back then. Maybe worth posting this somewhere else so it doesnt get lost in the i phone/simon griping.
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by Katzkatz » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:20 am

I liked the article on unconverted arcade games. I started a thread on this topic on the "It's All About the Games" section on the RG forum about year ago. Good that you mentioned the Aliens arcade game as well(that game kicks out some noise in the arcade).

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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by david.k.alexander » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:04 pm

I was very pleased to see "Jungle Trouble" get a screen-shot and a mention this issue. My absolute favourite game. Infuriating, oddly beautiful, and laugh-out loud the first time you encounter the suprise on each section.

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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by the_hawk » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:27 am

Almost finished the mag now, I have to say it's yet another fantastic issue.

Off the top of my head....

Sabreman, greatstuff.
Dan Dare was given the treatment it deserved, really interesting read.
ColecoVision great retroinspection, the most interesting for a long time and yes, I now really want one & will have to track down a good emulator in the meantime. :D
Martyn Brown interview was top stuff too and of course a feature on Durell is ALWAYS going to be a hit with me.
Return Fire, not a game I've any interest in, but an interesting read nonetheless.

....as for Simon, I have to admit I still haven't read it. OK it's been debated to death now & I'm sure it's a well written article but I just can't summon the interest to read through it. I really hope any non-computer/console gaming features are limited to one-offs.

Fantastic issue guys, I don't know how you keep the standard up. :D
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by kelp7 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:05 pm

Opa-Opa wrote:Anyone with a games console/home computer never gave this pile of tosh a second look back in the day and it certainly has nothing to do with video games at all..
It's always nice to come here for a bit of a chuckle each month. It's comments like that which I look forward to reading :) I'd say most statements that begin with "anyone" or "everyone" are quite often a pile of tosh too..... still, please tell me what my subjective experiences of my youth were.
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by kelp7 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:50 pm

Heh, i'm always last to give feedback i think. I always spread reading the mag out a bit through the month I guess, don't always get time immediately to sit and read it all the way through. I really really like this issue though. To me, this issue represented more than most, the era of gaming I tend to refer to as 'retro' (obviously that's completely up for debate and is well debated elsewhere). But yes, this issue hit the spot massively. Right from the word go, (i.e. the cover) I'm drawn in, a proper 8-bit cover with a proper classic 8-bit game. :) Great stuff.... But my main interest lies with 80s home computing (not consoles) and maybe a touch into the 90s via the Amiga I guess. But that's the main era of interest for me, if it's consoles it'll have to be 70s, the 80s were all about home-computing for me.

So, this is what I found interesting or uninteresting and what I'll feedback on:

The Cover : More like that please :) I mean, that is a gorgeous cover, I know people complain about pixel-art being blown up / re-sized, that's never bothered me, I just love pixel-art though and that is particularly well done. As someone else said previously.... I was a little bit put out by the "Rare" thing as far as Sabre Wulf is concerned. That's because, when Sabre Wulf originally came out (and the only time I played that game) it was Ultimate. But still, that's hardly a massive thing. I'd personally refer to it as Ultimate's Sabre Wulf but that's all i've known i guess.

Iain Lee : Yep, great read yet again. Mainly for the Micro Live mention, and the mention of Fred Harris. There's a name from the past and it would be really quite interesting to hear what he's been up to all these years and what his interests in computing actually were back in those days, what it was that got him so interested in computers that he decided to present a programme about them. Just glad to read Iain's earlier comment in this thread that he managed to track him down in the end, I do hope we hear the results of that in the magazine.

What If? : Doesn't particularly interest me as it's SNES :) I was quite used to seeing the attempts to put modern games into old 8-bit home computers so this threw me for a moment. I think it's certainly more exciting / interesting to see the most modern games put into the oldest home computers. I don't know much about the SNES as i'm just not interested but it doesn't seem like an old enough machine, much better to have the two extremes of hardware come together in this article I reckon.

Sabreman article : Very interesting indeed. I think when I was a kid I only really thought of Sabreman being the character in Sabre Wulf, possibly I recognised him as the same guy in Knightlore but didn't know of any of the others. Quite liked the article piecing together his timeline! Good stuff. Very very good balance of different hardware shown in the screenshots, so thanks for that. One of the things I appreciate the most in this magazine is having (clearly marked) screenshots of the same game but playing on different platforms. Of course the article covers many games but my comment is more towards the magazine in general. The article makes me wonder what other gaming characters (other than the very very obvious, like Mario) have survived through decades and have a timeline of their own.

Import Only : What a surprise. There are two nice surprises in the magazine this month IMO, this is the first one for me. I have to confess I usually skip this section as it's of no interest to me normally. Too much console coverage :) But the screenshots looked interesting enough to grab my attention and I had to see what the platform was. Amstrad CPC :) Brilliant! This sounds like an excellent lost gem of an 80s 8-bit game. The way you've described it it sounds like a must-have and one of the best games for the machine. I have to admit I do like the Amstrad a lot, never owned one though. I think it's possibly high-time for a little more CPC focus in the magazine possibly, as far as coverage of 8-bits go anyway. Otherwise a bit of VIC-20 would be cool :)

Durell Software : It's always interesting reading how these 80s companies formed their roots and got started. I have to admit to not knowing a lot of their games, Saboteur was basically it for me, I never played or owned any of their games other than this. And to be honest, the only version of Saboteur I had was the DOS version for my Amstrad PC, think it was on a coverdisk of PC Plus. (Though, can't remember now if it was Saboteur 1 or 2, will have to check back). Played quite well in DOS though! Which is another thing, more DOS gaming coverage please ;) The previous article a few issues ago was awesome BUT the main problem with it was (from memory) it seemed to forget that DOS gaming existed in the 80s, seemed a very 90s focused article. Some of us who only had DOS machines in the 80s to play games on will know that there were quite a number of conversions (Wizball, Arkanoid, Impossible Mission II, Test Drive, etc) and DOS-only games. Anyway, back to Durell, a very interesting read. Did not realise there was ever a link with Alan Sugar via bundling of Harrier Attack with the computer. Love these articles on these great 80s companies, so keep going! :)

Making of Simon : And there was the 2nd surprise this month :) brilliant. In fact, I caught the glimpes of it on the cover almost straight away after unwrapping the magazine and it was great to see a machine I hadn't even thought of in decades. This was such great fun back when we were really small in the 70s. My best friend at the time had one just before he ended up getting his Atari 2600 (which of course we ended up playing more) but he, his sister and I would play on Simon quite a lot I remember. Wasn't a lot else electronic-gamey around back then, Astro Wars was great though as well. Anyway, the people who were complaing about this article and saying things like "well how far should we go then? i had a pacman lunchbox which is connected in some way with gaming", well, what you do is ..... you don't get anal about it like many of you seem to be rejoicing in doing, instead you use good judgement as Darran seems to have done. There's a lot of griping about it but when I saw the article it was a joy to see and read and not once did it cross my mind that this would be a permanent thing or that this "is how Retro Gamer is going". One final point, the idea of the cover is to potentially draw in new readers. I have to say, if I had never heard of RG and I saw that cover I would have bought it immediately, just based on the Simon shot and the Sabrewulf graphics. A lovely read and brought back many memories and included lots of interesting facts. Thanks for the article, it was a nice surprise!

Uridium : I'm in Retro heaven this issue, classics just keep on coming. Such a great game. I think it's possible, as an 8-bit fan, I'm getting spoiled this issue :) I await the return of a load of 32-bit / 64-bit articles next month hehe.... doesn't bother me though, as some people were saying earlier in the thread, it's better to have a mixed bag, a bit like chaos each month! It's great not being sure what you're gonna get... and there's always something of value each month...

The Unconverted : Didn't read it :( sorry! Skipped this one. But I never went to the arcades, which might be part of the problem. We went to the arcades about 3 times in the whole of my youth as a treat when my dad would take us. Everything seemed amazing of course, but i'm afraid my main experiences with gaming were on home computers and that's where all my memories and focus lie.

Burger Time : Brilliant also! :) Very happy to see that in the issue... had this on my DOS Amstrad PC also. Great fun and nice to be reminded of it.

ColecoVision : Despite not having a great interest in consoles, this one I couldn't skip, it did look very intriguing indeed. And I'm glad I read it. I've heard the name many times in the past but never knew much about it. The story of it though was a fascinating read, particularly the trip to see Nintendo Japan. Sounded like a scary situation and very intriguing to read how close they were to losing out to Atari for the rights to Donkey Kong.

I could go on and on now so i'm gonna stop there. I'll just say this has been one of the best issues for me. The homebrew section is great as usual, do not ever stop covering new games for old machines, that's something that's endlessly fascinating for me. Some of the history of Team 17 was a great read (being a bit of an Amiga fan). Next issue, Elite.... just fantastic :) At least i'll be happy with that, although I'm sure a lot of people really don't "get" Elite or want to read about it anymore. I'm still interested in what the article is going to be as really it is absolutely one of my favourite games of all time (next to Starflight, which no-one's ever heard of but is just as influential)

Thanks for an issue absolutely bursting with great and fascinating content.
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by Mr Vengeance » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:37 pm

I picked up this issue today in the shop (I had a bit of a moan about it earlier in this thread if you's remember) and had a nosey at what will be coming in issue 74 - again what was described was generally 80's related. Pretty much dashed my hopes of a bit of a 32-bit loving issue on the cards that - I guess I'll just have to accept that Retro Gamer is primarily an 8-bit read, and go and get my more recent retro hit elsewhere online or where ever.

*Shrugs* Ho Hum. Guess I'm in the minority on this - market demand for a more 16 bit / 32 bit / 64 bit mag just isn't there right now.....
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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by Opa-Opa » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:40 pm

Mr Vengeance wrote:I picked up this issue today in the shop (I had a bit of a moan about it earlier in this thread if you's remember) and had a nosey at what will be coming in issue 74 - again what was described was generally 80's related. Pretty much dashed my hopes of a bit of a 32-bit loving issue on the cards that - I guess I'll just have to accept that Retro Gamer is primarily an 8-bit read, and go and get my more recent retro hit elsewhere online or where ever.

*Shrugs* Ho Hum. Guess I'm in the minority on this - market demand for a more 16 bit / 32 bit / 64 bit mag just isn't there right now.....

I don't get where you are coming from and agree it must just be you..

There is plenty of 16 bit and even more 32 bit now with the likes of Driver being covered.. I think the mix is just about right (except for the toys ;) ).

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Re: Issue 73 feedback

Post by kelp7 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:31 pm

Opa-Opa wrote:There is plenty of 16 bit and even more 32 bit now with the likes of Driver being covered.. I think the mix is just about right (except for the toys ;) ).
Which toys? I would like a list or some suggestions because i'd quite like to read those issues, if they're of interest of course (i.e. electronic games naturally)

I always find myself mentally cursing at the amount of 16-bit 32-bit every month so I think everyone is right and everyone is wrong on this :) Doesn't bother me, as has been said loads in this thread, the coverage waxes and wanes for all types of hardware, this particular issue does seem to have quite an oldskool feel to it though, which i like, but other issues haven't been anything like this recently so i'm sure it'll go back to the less retro stuff soon :)
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